The Role Playing Public Radio Forums
General Category => RPGs => : clockworkjoe June 18, 2009, 06:45:29 PM
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no not really but this guy says so
http://mike-brendan.livejournal.com/123651.html
i am trying to lay some science down on his ass
it aint going through :-\
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D&D 4E ruined my life!!! :'(
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Well, that's like five minutes of reading I could've spent rolling up a character, or download porn, or something useful.
I like your counter points there Ross. Felt like replying myself but I honestly don't see the point of arguing with the dude. It just doesn't feel worth it.
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i wanted to write pee pee doo doo
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I am more of a fan of the butt. As in "You are butt", "Your mom is a butt", "I'll make you eat butt"
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I am more of a fan of the butt.
There's a quote right there.
It's cool, man. No one's judging you.
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I am the lord of Buttrock
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I am the lord of Buttrock
You could start a new genre. "Butt Metal". That'd sell.
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You guys are going down a dangerous road.
If you start integrating "butt" into standard conversation, then we will be required to replace the current use of "butt" with something else.
How would you feel if you ended out being the dirt-hole end of a joke???? Yeah. See, doesn't feel to good doo doo it? ;D
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Look we just need to get back to the fippity floppity flue and realize 4th edition is a bad game. If it was a good game it would have been called Butt:Dee Dee dooot
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I wanted to rail on this guy for being such a dumbass, but then I remembered I was on the internet and
started laughing downloaded more porn.
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Joseph Goodman sets the record straight http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6207&p=25324#p25324
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Joseph Goodman sets the record straight http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6207&p=25324#p25324
TLDR. ::)
He doesn't even have an avatar. How am I supposed to respect him?!
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Joseph Goodman sets the record straight http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6207&p=25324#p25324
TLDR. ::)
He doesn't even have an avatar. How am I supposed to respect him?!
>:(
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I have to say that I personally really like DnD 4E both as a DM and a player.
Player-wise I enjoy the fact that I can customize my character in a wide variety of ways without being useless or breaking the game and as a DM I was just sick of having to go over the 20 odd books of supplemental material to find what spell the wizard wanted to cast.
Wizards did take over the game in 3.5E, While running the City of the Spider Queen Campaign it was totally broken from the Sun Mage (prestige class) tearing apart encounters single handed with a fireball. I was really naive to let that class into the game because of the ridiculous bonuses the class had against Undead and Drow specifically. The whole thing bummed the players and me out especially after setting up the map, reading up on the tactics (not to mention plumbing the 20+ books for details on the NPC and players abilities), Setting everything up to be blown out in 1 round. My fault entirely for not checking on the details of the prestige class and trusting the player.
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Just the fact that monsters now have all their relevant abilities listed in their entry is amazing.
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I'm sorry you feel that way. Some of us lime cross referencing three books to see how well our Pc can disarm the Orc swinging an improvesed shovel while etherial!
Good day!
I said good day!
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Just the fact that monsters now have all their relevant abilities listed in their entry is amazing.
I can run whole encounters using three or four different monster templates out of the book without having to turn the page. I love it.
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4E is the whole reason I started D&D. I tried some years ago but the rules were too complex for my wee mind.
Plus I got a good deal on Amazon for the 3 core books. =P
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I played 3rd edition when it came out, stopped caring about it, and when 4th edition came out, I jumped on the bandwagon and loved it. Last weekend I recently played a 3rd edition game (much to my chagrin as it was a last minute bait and switch).
3rd edition has its merits. As someone who likes social situations, I ended up playing a bard and it was fun being able to use my spells to affect roleplaying outcomes more easily than 4th edition. However, in combat, boy, did I feel useless (as opposed to when I was playing a bard in 4th edition, where I felt like I was at least helping out a bit). The party needed a fighter, but I refused to play it 'cause, Lord, are they boring in 3rd edition. Playing a fighter in fourth edition is a lot more fun.
Anyway, I came away thinking "both editions have their merits and are fun." I still walked away from the table thinking, "Yeep. I played Dungeons & Dragons."
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honestly i liked the fighter in 3e also enjoued the samuri. from the oriantal adventures book wich was the same thing as a fighter basicly just started with a good sword. anyways they get a feat every other level or so, so you'll have cleave and ww in no time as a warrior or what ever you plan on going. i had a person play bow fighter so he picked up some nasty bow feats and was pretty sick with it.
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Whether you prefer 3.X or 4e kind of depends on what you want out of your gaming. If you want to roleplay and have the mechanics to back it up, well 3.X facilitates that a little better as there are more social oriented skills right up front. I think that 4e using skill challenges for important social situations evens things up a fair bit as it allows for more people than just the Face to better contribute mechanically to a roleplay situation, but YMMV.
If you want to have a lot of flexibility (for a class/level based system) for building your character to the point where you can easily break the game (or at least slow it to a crawl as you dig through 20 books for all your stuff), then 3.X is for you. Personally, I think that 4e plays to the advantages of a class/level system better and that if you want real flexibility you'd probably be better off looking at a different game system entirely.
If you want a good ~game~, then I seriously feel that 4e is better. I see people all the time saying that 3.X is better from a mechanics standpoint and that's the point where I just can't listen anymore. d20 prior to D&D4e and Star Wars Saga Edition was pretty damned clunky. I still played it and liked it, but an example of awesome game design it was not.
I'm not a blind fan of 4e. I have my own issues with it. I don't like what they've done with the alignment system (and it says a lot that even most 4e fans ignore it and use the traditional one), I don't like the changes to the planes, and I think that they screwed up by not introducing a real default game world. But beyond those things, I think that 4e is far and above the best D&D edition I've played.
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I think on the D&D podcast they made an offhand comment that 4E is in fact played in Greyhawk, if I heard them right and they were not talking about 3.x edition.
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I think on the D&D podcast they made an offhand comment that 4E is in fact played in Greyhawk, if I heard them right and they were not talking about 3.x edition.
It's similar. 4E actually has a unique defaulted setting with established cities, as detailed in various books. River Crest, Fall Crest, and anything else that appears in the pregen adventures is assumed to be part of the this defaulted world.
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Whether you prefer 3.X or 4e kind of depends on what you want out of your gaming. If you want to roleplay and have the mechanics to back it up, well 3.X facilitates that a little better as there are more social oriented skills right up front. I think that 4e using skill challenges for important social situations evens things up a fair bit as it allows for more people than just the Face to better contribute mechanically to a roleplay situation, but YMMV.
If you want to have a lot of flexibility (for a class/level based system) for building your character to the point where you can easily break the game (or at least slow it to a crawl as you dig through 20 books for all your stuff), then 3.X is for you. Personally, I think that 4e plays to the advantages of a class/level system better and that if you want real flexibility you'd probably be better off looking at a different game system entirely.
If you want a good ~game~, then I seriously feel that 4e is better. I see people all the time saying that 3.X is better from a mechanics standpoint and that's the point where I just can't listen anymore. d20 prior to D&D4e and Star Wars Saga Edition was pretty damned clunky. I still played it and liked it, but an example of awesome game design it was not.
I'm not a blind fan of 4e. I have my own issues with it. I don't like what they've done with the alignment system (and it says a lot that even most 4e fans ignore it and use the traditional one), I don't like the changes to the planes, and I think that they screwed up by not introducing a real default game world. But beyond those things, I think that 4e is far and above the best D&D edition I've played.
I personaly like the 4E better then 3rd. But 3rd ed fighters were fun! haha!
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I saw this on a thread in the SA forums - basically going over anti 4E grognards who hate that fighters get powers now and bitch about it is 'unrealistic'
Whats the fucking obsession with realism anyway? It's literally a fantasy game about heroes doing fantastic shit in a world with magic and dragons and all that shit. That's what they signed on for! None of the books ever once imply that what they're aiming for is realism, the word fantasy is used more often in RPG books than anywhere else in print other than maybe cheesy erotica or something. That's like... the whole point?
It's such a random demand too. Dragons are apparently realistic, that's cool no complaint there, dudes with beards throwing fire from their hands is realistic. But second winds? Encounter powers? A dude with a sword actually doing cool shit? That just fucking blows their minds, breaks their immersion, and is just totally beyond the scope of their imagination.
I bet they flip past a beholder like it aint no thing. A creature that literally defies gravity, constantly, doesn't set off their unrealism alarm, but that fighter better not do shit with his sword other than attack or it's all over.
By that logic, a martial artist is a "magic user".
which leads to the superslam:
are you surprised that these people think exercise requires supernatural aid
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I like the "random demand" section best. And that is an awesome burn.
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Damn that's such a great burn I can feel the heat from here!
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I like that the author's argument is that players want to be gratified instantly in the games that they play, and the game makers' acquiescence to that desire in game design is going to doom the game industry.
To paraphrase: giving the paying customers what they want is going to kill the business...?
I find it kind of silly that the author assumes that delayed gratification is inherently better than instant gratification, even if the end result is the same.
To paraphrase: It's better to get $1 tomorrow instead of getting that same $1 today.
I can just hear the guy now: "Damn those players for always wanting to do cool things all the time... Why can't they just stay off my lawn..."
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I was listening to RPPR Episode 18 where Ross and Tom reviewed 4e for the first time.
They basically said that while they liked some things, they didn't like it overall.
I guess that has changed.
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I was listening to RPPR Episode 18 where Ross and Tom reviewed 4e for the first time.
They basically said that while they liked some things, they didn't like it overall.
I guess that has changed.
Didn't understand it that well - only used stock adventures which sucked (keep on the shadowfell and kobold hall) and it took a while before I saw its advantages.
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2nd post.
2 cents.
If you want to have fun playing a role-playing game, play with people you like. Systems are optional. I have enjoyed and hated every system I have played. It all came down to the people and the story. Broken mechanics and things you don't like can be side-stepped or outright ignored. One thing every rpg I have ever played has always stated in the game is "do whatever is fun, and if a rule isn't working, don't use it."
I'm currently running two systems - pathfinder (I'm a fan of what they have changed from 3.5) and 4e (I'm still learning, and I like a great many things, but if I hear "twin-strike" one more time I might vomit...).
I am enjoying Pathfinder as it is comforatble and I have essentially had 7 years of 3.x to get used to it.
I am enjoying 4e because man can I whip up encounters quickly, and everyone gets to do something, every round.
New systems are always tough. They are like new cars. You test drive them, and they smell nice, and look nice, but it isn't until you get them home that you realize they don't have as many cup holders as your old car, and the place where you keep your change on the dash isn't there anymore... but the new car is so fast! And smells nice... and there are no food stains from where the kids... never mind. You get my point.
One thing I can agree with whole-heartedly is that the stock adventures suck ballz. I tried running the forgotten realms something-of-war path and the first adventure was one of those completely disconnected dungeons where the family crypt has fungus and drakes and the gnomes live there too... it's like something reached into the monster manual and just ripped out pages at random and said, yeah, since we don't have favoured terrain any more, this will work and people can suspend enough disbelief to enjoy this... yeah, that's it. Garbage. Absolute garbage. Even dungeons should make some sense. Undead and orcs don't live happily only a room apart from each other without some sort of controlling shaman or magical trinkets or wards that keep them apart. It's like, "Morning Ralhp," and "Morning Sam..." and let's just clock in and out like we do this every day and nothing is unusual about the situation.
I do find for 4e it is a bit of a challenge to handle all of the old mundane stuff that 3.x could do, like profession checks and craft checks. I end up defaulting to whatever a character does best for the most part and hoping everyone buys into it "yes, acrobatics does help you steer a ship at sea, why wouldn't it?"
Anyway, enough blathering from me for one post. Just play whatever, as long as you play and have fun.
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The adventures really do make the difference when comparing the systems. It's D&D, so naturally lots of DMs make up bad dungeon crawls, but a bad dungeon crawl in 4E can at least engage every member of the party because they all have useful combat abilities. Back in 3.5, bad dungeon crawls were unbearable. There was no variety to the action from round-to-round, room-to-room. Everyone sits around waiting for the thief to look for traps and the wizard to decide he can spare a fireball to deal with all the goblins and oozes. Yawn.
The difference was really highlighted for me when I moved away from my 4E group earlier this year and joined a group starting a 3.5 Dragonlance campaign. Warning bells were already going off in my head, so when creating my character I went through all the forums and books to create the most kick-ass cleric build imaginable. I synergized buff spells, metamagic feats, and gear. By level 7 I was the size of a giant, could uproot trees with my bare hands and wrestle trolls. But after hours of work, my cleric was still as boring to play as every other 3.5 cleric in a dungeon, and far less interesting than the 4E cleric I had chosen powers for at random in about 5 minutes.
Maybe 4E did lose some of the deeper roleplaying mechanics, but are those really important? Fourth Edition makes the dungeons and dragons of Dungeons & Dragons more fun. That's worth some praise.
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That was a hell of a point - "It makes the dungeons and dragons of Dungeons & Dragons..."
I have had my group fight 2 dragons in 4e and they are only 7th level. Unheard of for 3.x in my opinion.
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Maybe 4E did lose some of the deeper roleplaying mechanics
What mechanics are you referring to?
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The commonly discussed ones are skills like craft and profession, cantrips, other non-combat spells, and even the simplification of alignment. Game mechanics which help players define who their characters are and what they can do when the fighting is over. For some people, those mechanics help to flesh out a character and develop its personality.
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The commonly discussed ones are skills like craft and profession, cantrips, other non-combat spells, and even the simplification of alignment. Game mechanics which help players define who their characters are and what they can do when the fighting is over. For some people, those mechanics help to flesh out a character and develop its personality.
I would like to see a skill or feat or something that relates to the simpler aspects of life in the 4e world. I do agree that the PC's are heroes, and heroes don't often plant crops, but everyone has to start somewhere and the point or two I used to put into craft or profession did add something to the character. Maybe they could add a "trait" to the backgrounds? That seems like a reasonable method. Or create a second background that has the historical/flavour aspects.
I do like the way they handled wizards cantrips and the such - the little flavour of at-will prestidigitation and light are wonderful additions. When pathfinder made it so you could cast cantrips an unlimited amount, I was very pleased. I also like the way rituals are handled. I really like rituals. I find it is a better system than the vancian for a lot of stuff.
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That was a hell of a point - "It makes the dungeons and dragons of Dungeons & Dragons..."
I have had my group fight 2 dragons in 4e and they are only 7th level. Unheard of for 3.x in my opinion.
I had a group of 2 level 1 PCs fight a Grey Drakeling (level 3 elite).
(One player was obsessed with dragons. He was convinced that the undead skeletons that were attacking the town were the work of dragons, so I had one show up.)
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You know though there is almost something to be said for the very rift 4E has created. that is to say; bad press , is better than no press. For me I had in my mind early on that they wern't going to do anything with Dragonlance so I figured why bother with 4e all together. But man after so much pissing and moaning I felt obligated to at least see what the problem was. After some examination I discovered it really wasnt ( to me) worth all the bitching I had heard, but also was a pretty far deviation from what I was used to. I tell you the truth I played World of Warcraft since its beta , only recently getting off that hamster wheel , and while I know this has been said many times before about 4e - it really , really , really reminds me of WoW. I'm sure as a buisness strategy that is probably a good thing. To me its going to be a lot easier to get my wow friends into gaming with 4E then it maybe would be with say- CoC ( this is more a statment of my friends childlike attention span than any statement of CoC) and hopefully that will parlay itself into a larger gaming group.
I'm looking into pathfinder currently , just sort of a glancing overview to see if it would be easier to change my DL stuff into the small conversion into pathfinder , or if the system sucks and I need to do it in 4E. I'm a guy who thinks 3/3.5 e's issues dealt with the plethora of books one had to own as a dm in order to run again. Some jackass always seemed to have some book you didnt have which always stated " yes , yes he can do that" , and that got a little old- so If pathfinder goes that route im not terribly interested either.
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Pathfinder goes that route but to a lesser extent.
You can also restrict the players to just the core book or just the paizo stuff.
I am really enjoying the new pathfinder.
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I bet that the Adventurer's Vault 2 reopens some of the complaints calling 4e a tabletop MMO clone. WotC practically begged for the comparison though. There are now item sets in AV2 that are quite similar to Tiered gear in WoW. Even not having played WoW in a couple of years and largely divested myself of anything relating to it, the first thing that popped into my head was the similarity. I don't think they're bad, and in fact most of the sets are pretty interesting, but it's going to fuel the flames on that particular argument to be sure.
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I love the new items sets, especially the group items sets. I'm not a WoW player (I've played it but I didn't even use all the days in the free trial) but I'm surprised that I didn't make that connection when I read through the book. The first thing that I did was start talking with my players about how the different sets could be used in a campaign.
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Yeah my statements were made without knowledge of the item sets. Now I think its pretty obvious, if not riddiculous. Not to say Im unhappy with the idea - thats one of the things I did always like about WoW - the idea of personal achievement resulting in a very personal reward - the item sets.
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I haven't ever posted here before, but I feel compelled to offer my two cents. No tabletop will ever be a "clone of an mmo". It's just not possible. A tabletop isn't a board game, it is a group of people sitting around building a story together, the system is just a method to prevent the "uh-uh that didn't happen" from becoming an issue. The real reason, well, the reason I at least play RPG's, is for the fun of face to face interactions, the commentary around the game, and the story. The rules, the roles, the dice used: All just a means to an end.
That being said, a 4E game can be just as much fun as a 3.5 game. It's as good as the DM and the players make it. It facillitates different styles of play, emphasizes the power of magic, and can be fun. 4E allows players to all be about the same in power, excelling at different aspects of the game, I've played both and had good and bad experiences with both systems.
Unfortunately, a lot of people that I know refuse to play 4E, or refused to approach it with an open mind. My reccomendation is this: If you have a good group, a good DM, and a good story, any system can be fun. Just keep an open mind, and try to enjoy the game.
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4E fixes a lot of problems that make 3E unplayable in certain ways, such as high level/epic 3E being fucking awful and I say this having run an epic campaign, monster stat blocks being unusable without cross-checking multiple books, spellcaster supremacy, combat being boring, and prestige class minmaxing insanity.
So, really, there is nothing that 3E offers over 4E. You can certainly have a great game with 3E but it has more flaws in its rules than 4E. You have to work harder to get a great game going I think.
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Couldn't agree with you more. I think that 4E is a much better system, and I'm getting pretty frustrated at my players (not to mention others) for refusing to try the new system out. I've made adventures in 4E and it's nice having the tools at your disposal without having to spend hours developing spell lists etc. I understand there are those hardcore 3E fans, and accept this, however, that being said I prefer 4th ed. I just can't seem to get a group that aren't purists in regards to the older rules. They refuse to try out new games. Ever since being exposed to Call of Cthulu (via RPPR, I might add) I wanted to run a game of it, however, people refuse saying, "It's new, therefore I don't understand it, therefore I hate it." It's just a pet peve of mine when people refuse to try something out based on the fact that it's new. A player actually said, "I know what I like, so why would I ever want to deviate?". I believe it's fun to play, so at least give it a shot. I've run 3.5E rather than nothing for a while, but it's just frustrating that people won't adapt, or claim a system is "inherently un-fun". I feel it's a rules lawyers' system, and honestly, I'd like the same willingness to give it a go in return when I suggest a 4th ed game to my players. I'm leaning towards applying the no gaming is better than spending time writing material for elitists, who to a large extent seem only to enjoy the min maxing that the 3.5 edition offers. When they wouldn't try out Call of Cthulu, I had to wonder if it was worth continuing to try to work with it any longer. I enjoy playing, and trying out the new 4E rules would breath some new life into the game (as well as level the playing field), as would trying a new system... but I digress. These are games that are meant to be enjoyed, and I wish people would step away from the need to have a powerhouse, and try to just enjoy the game as a game.
One last point to those that claim 4E is a WoW clone: In wow, you have one build that can be successful in high end raiding or PVP. I'd say that that's true for 3.5 to, as certain feat/spell combinations lead to overpowered builds, same as in WoW. Just a thought.
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your group is assholes
Call of Cthulhu is easier to pick up than 3.5E.
Fuck those guys. Find a new group.
Hell be an asshole. Just show with Call of Cthulhu in hand and say 'we're either playing CoC (or whatever) or I am never running a game for you again. And if you sabotage this game, I will never run a game for you again."
Play hardball.
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Good calll.... Fuck them indeed! They actually got too drunk to play last session, so I'm pretty sure I'm just gonna find some new blood. It's a maturity issue... and it's not mine. So fuck it.
Just to wrap up my thoughts on the issue, in bullet format, because everything is better bulletized:
• I’ve played D&D since AD&D, and 4th ed is the best installment yet (Yeah, that's right, I've dealt with THAC0 and it made me die a little inside).
• Enjoy gaming and don’t waste your gm’s time. If you do this, your game will suck in any edition.
• Quit comparing D&D to WoW. D&D doesn’t make me want to choke my computer after fifteen minutes of playtime.
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They actually got too drunk to play last session...
Why the fuck are you playing with these people?!
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Well, to be perfectly honest, I'm in the millitary. Now, I don't want to talk bad about my compatriots at all, but trust me, it's not what the recruiters make it out to be. To some extent (a greater extent) the bottom 10% rule applies. Those that can, do. Those that can't, join the military. Bottom line, I'm stuck in VA beach, I leave way too much to get a solid group of civillian gamers, and people in the navy are more about beer than intelligent, imaginative entertainment. To be honest, I was just happy to find a group.
However, what we're doing can't be called gameing, just wasting time. Therefore, screw it. I'd like to think I'm a good DM, GM, or whatever, but it's hard to tell if the group sucks. I'm getting really close to getting out, and when I do I'm planning on opening up a game shop dedicated towards tabletops. It's a passion, what can I say? Doubt it'll make me rich, but there's more to life than that. Thus, I kinda looked at running this game as an oppertunity to practice dm skills.
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As lame as it may sound, you might want to try http://www.meetup.com to find like minded gamers in your area, posting ads at local game stores and the like. Good luck with finding a good group of gamers.
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Well, to be perfectly honest, I'm in the millitary.
Ah.
Anyway, I think it's great you want to play other things and it's a shame you have a limited pool to draw from. Like xHero says, you can try finding people online, either to game online or meet up in RL.
My old recruiting method of carrying my books around in public to try and catch gamer eyes worked out pretty poorly, though I did get some good gaming out of the freaks I managed to hook before they exploded all over each other and the group disolved... so I don't really recommend that method.
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Definately looking into the online thing, and my wife just started work at a book store and a bunch of the employees are gamers. Nothing wrong with a 30% discount and some new blood at the table lol.
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Definately looking into the online thing, and my wife just started work at a book store and a bunch of the employees are gamers. Nothing wrong with a 30% discount and some new blood at the table lol.
Wow, 30% goes a long way over a short time with roleplaying books. I mean if I could get a 30% discount in a store I'd basically never use Amazon again.
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I know, it helps when you marry a gamer right?!? But hey, amazon isn't the worst, and they have a fairly good selection... So far I think I own most of the 4E books out there.
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I think I'm going to create a porn site dedicated to 30% of game corebook fetishists... www.wenchesofthecoast.com?
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I think I'm going to create a porn site dedicated to 30% of game corebook fetishists... www.wenchesofthecoast.com?
How much does you charge per month?
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um...30%off?!?
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um...30%off?!?
I'm convinced. Do you take blank checks?
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um...30%off?!?
I'm convinced. Do you take blank checks?
Indubitably. Be sure to submit your name for a chance to win one of our great prizes!!!