Author Topic: House rules in overabundance  (Read 14792 times)

Phelanar

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House rules in overabundance
« on: March 11, 2009, 01:20:40 AM »
So, I recently joined a weekly Shadowrun (4th Ed) game and the co-GM...has house rules. Lots and lots of house rules. I have no fewer than 12 different documents with house rules from this GM. Character generation was changed dramatically and, as a person new to the system if not the setting, it took me the better part of 3 hours to make a character with them, even though I only used the core rulebook and not any of the other source books. For those of you familiar with the system, it went from a 400 build point buy using BP costs to a 750 karma buy using upgrade costs.  I've never once run into a game which uses this many house rules and quite frankly I'm not sure if I want to keep playing the game because I wonder if I'm playing Shadowrun or the homebrew of somebody who fancies himself a game developer. I've had my enthusiasm for the game drastically reduced and am actually considering just calling the GM and telling him I don't want to play anymore. Despite the fact that I'm a huge Shadowrun fanboy (it was my first ever real tabletop RPG) and would love to be in a good Shadowrun campaign

Anybody else run into this sort of situation where an overabundance of house rules has dramatically affected your enjoyment of or anticipation for a game?
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clockworkjoe

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Re: House rules in overabundance
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2009, 01:47:24 AM »
I've been in games with house rules but they were usually optional and ignored. I remember a Ravenloft AD&D game where the DM had a notebook of martial arts rules he had written. No one else really looked at them but me. I found the boxing/punching martial art's ability to be very useful: at level 1, I got 2 attacks that did 1d10 lethal damage. Which, in AD&D terms is equal to two great sword attacks every fucking round. Sadly, I was killed by a rival faction of players (10 players altogether and everyone was drinking) before I could unleash the fucking fury.

My advice is to make a straight up character and tell him you couldn't make a character and that the rules are too much work to bother with.

Phelanar

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Re: House rules in overabundance
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2009, 02:19:58 AM »
Somehow I don't think that's going to go over real well. Right now I'm warily going to give it a shot, but I certainly don't like having to deal with it. If it turns out to be a homebrew-in-Shadowrun-clothing I'll bail and run the D&D game I've been wanting to for a while.
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Maze

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Re: House rules in overabundance
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2009, 07:44:31 AM »
As long as he gives you the heads up and helps you understand his rules BEFORE you get into trouble and/or die because his house rule says you you accidentally shot your balls off and bleed to death, I don't see the problem.

Of course, if he does use them in a manner of "Oh, you didn't know? Well, you can't do that anyhow so you fail. Ha-ha." well then that's different.

Tadanori Oyama

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Re: House rules in overabundance
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2009, 12:03:30 PM »
If the rules suck then don't play. I like to apply Occam's Razor to my gaming. If you play the game and like it, keep playing. If you don't, than figure out which parts you don't like and remove them. If those "parts" are the co-DM and his rules, than either leave the play group or bring it up in the session.

I'd say something to the effect of "What's with all those house rules, dude? The game was complex enough."

ethan_dawe

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Re: House rules in overabundance
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2009, 01:16:02 PM »
I'm pretty light witht he house rules in my game and gernerally only add things if all the players agree that we want to. Currently, the one that comes to mind is (in D&D 3.5) increased feat progression to every two levels rather than every three, or whatever it was originally.

Phelanar

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Re: House rules in overabundance
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2009, 11:18:32 PM »
Oh, I have copies of all the house rules that I'm aware of, but I'm kind of at a loss to why he's using so many of them and I'm more than a little turned off by the sheer numbers of them. I'm not against house rules in general as no system ever has gotten things completely perfect. But in my experience, lots of house rules means that the either the system is so horrid and clunky that it needs house rules merely to function or that the GM thinks he can do game design better than professionals. I suspect the latter for this game and that's why I've got concerns. Because I'm just learning the rule system and I don't feel that I can expect that rule system to stay consistent. I suspect that the first time that things go against him when we play that things will get changed.

I just wanted to get a cross section from other people on how they reacted to a sheaf of house rules to the game they're about to play.
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Phelanar

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Re: House rules in overabundance
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2009, 02:14:35 AM »
Just wanted to update the situation. Had our first actual game session tonight. Thankfully, the vast numbers of house rules really didn't hinder things a hell of a lot tonight. I think if we'd run into a lot of situations where rules were changed, it might have been (and still could be) different, but things were more by-the-book tonight than they weren't.
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Re: House rules in overabundance
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2009, 02:29:20 AM »
TOPIC ZOMBIE!!!!
Brought this topic back from the grave yard because I could relate fairly well:

Started playing a Shadowrun 4th ed game last month, this is the GM's first time GMing and his first experience in Shadowrun.
d6 went right out the window: d10 system incorporated. 1-2 glitch 8-10 hit
Game ran as a survival horror instead of a run'n'gun (not entirely unheard of, but daring for a first time runner)
Encorporating major elements from VTM and prestige classes from d&d 3.5.
Magic system being rewritten weekly.

Surprisingly enough, I absolutely love it. Keeps me guessing ya' know?

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Murph

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Re: House rules in overabundance
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2009, 01:11:59 PM »
That's an ... Interesting take on Shadowrun.  If it's fun, more power to you.  It kinda sounds like the DM wanted to play a white wolf game.

Though what are the magic system rules change?  I've always thought that 4th ed Shadowrun rules, while not always being balanced, were good, interesting, and not broken.

For those of you unaware, the system is basically this.  You can cast pretty much every spell at time of creation.  You can cast each at a different number. This number was limited to double your magic attribute, which is reasonably hard to increase.  A pc with magic 5 could cast a power 10 spell.  You gather your dice, roll successes, and each spell had a different effect (a basic fireball might do power level + sucessess damage).  After you cast the spell you had to deal with drain.  The drain of a spell was usually 1/2 it's power level, but it varied.  So you gathered your drain skill dice and rolled.  Each success reduced the drain by 1.  If you had drain left over, you took damage.  The damage was stun damage if the power level was at or below your magic level.  The damage was leathal if it was above.  So a strait out the gate Mage could cast a power 12 fireball, but he's gonna be in the hospital or worse probably.

xHero

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Re: House rules in overabundance
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2009, 05:12:16 PM »
The reason that he manipulated the magic system was due to a streak of bad luck in our first session:

  We were in a shootout at a motel against a gang of orcs. I just got done killing one of them when our weapons specialist critically glitches and shoots me in my spine. Our mage (first time roleplayer and very confused by the rules) takes the GM's advice to heal me. She overcasted Heal with a poor success roll and a very poor drain resistance roll. Everyone had their noses in the books trying to figure out how to heal in a reasonable manner.

If anyone can simplify the system for me and let me know just how easy it is to heal I will be forever indebted.
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ArtfulShrapnel

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Re: House rules in overabundance
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2009, 01:02:33 PM »
It isn't supposed to be easy to heal in Shadowrun. They take the "scientific" magic approach.

Patching together thousands of living cells, various organs, and tissues in a cohesive manner without doing any harm to the rest of the living being attached to them is complicated. Just lighting a room on fire is much simpler from an energy expenditure/complexity standpoint.

Same reason we have Heat/Explosion grenades in the real world, but not Health Bombs.

Additionally, the game is supposed to be deathy/lethal. You aren't supposed to walk out of each encounter at full hit points like in DnD. The healing magic is supposed to be a field triage kit, used only for seriously injured people so they can get back on their feet and fight their way to safety, where they can THEN rest and heal.

ArtfulShrapnel

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Re: House rules in overabundance
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2009, 01:44:02 PM »
That said, if you want to run a "high adventure" version, just reducing the drain value on various spells can accomplish it fairly quickly. Drain is your "mana pool" for that system, so tweaking it downwards a little bit means giving everyone more spells per encounter.

Personally, I have no problem with homebrew rules. I use them in abundance, especially when the actual rules are clunky or counter to the theme of the game I'm trying to run. One thing I find helpful is to gather up some people who are good with game systems. The college I just graduated form has a Game Design department, and a Game Design club. These are people who have all done in-depth study into how rules work, how they affect the gameplay experience.

Some advice we use when making changes to rules:

Have a Clear Goal: When you start to make a change to the rules, you should know why you are doing it. You should have a very specific objective in mind, and make sure your solution addresses that problem while affecting the rest of the game as little as necessary. Changes that are too broad or unfocused quickly spiral out of control. Even if your change is a big one, clearly defining what you intend to do and why you intend to do it can be the difference between a wonderful mod and a gigantic rules clusterf***. While you're changing healing magic, make sure you know the desired outcome. Are you more concerned with the difficulty of healing, or the damage it did to the caster? Because those are different problems. Do you want to put a condition on this better healing ability? Perhaps allowing the person to add their First Aid or Medicine dice to the casting would solve the problem without changing anything about the magic?

Start Simple, then Refine: Don't worry about the little details at first. If you're going to overhaul the healing system, start with a simple, easily explained change that will affect the change you want. For example, if you decide that the damage to a healing character for casting is too high, try cutting the healing Drain rating in half. From there, refine it through playtesting and thought experiments to see if there are specific changes needed, or other small things that need to be tweaked as a result, etc.

Study the Game from the Designer's Standpoint: Assuming we're talking about a fully-developed game, everything in it was included for a reason. It might be a crappy reason, or it might be irrelevant to your game or intent, but someone thought it needed to be there. Studying games from an objective "why did they do this?" standpoint is critical. When you change a rule, you're messing with the internal structure of the system, and you need to be aware of where that rule does (or doesn't) interact with other rules. Maybe healing was intentionally gimped because of the range of other options, such as drugs or cyberware, that help handle the problem. Changing that could make certain players brokenly powerful, or take away the advantage of other, very expensive abilities.

Playtest, Playtest, Playtest Try your homebrew rules in a one-shot or other low-risk setting. Involve a variety of people with different levels of play experience and familiarity with the system if possible. Solicit your players' opinions about the rules changes, and be open to tweaking or overhauling them if something doesn't end up working out. If you must use them in a game, always allow your players the option of changing their characters in response, and get their feedback about the changes. Even though dropping the Drain rating helps one character, maybe there's another who spent a TON of points into their endurance specifically to soak that damage. They have now gimped their character in other areas to counter a problem that no longer exists! They should have the chance to rectify this.

Me and a couple GM buddies have had great success with homebrew rules by sticking to these basic tennants. We've done a very successful point-buy version of DnD (yes, it was a pain in the ASS, but the result was cool.). We just finished a full rewrite of FATE 3.0 that we're calling AURA and getting ready to publish in a new setting, and dozens of smaller mods that have only occasionally caused trouble.

tl;dr: Game design is complicated, but homebrew can be done well with the right planning and study.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 01:46:02 PM by ArtfulShrapnel »