U.S. Court rules DnD leads to gang behavoir

[beej]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/27/us/27dungeons.html?emc=eta1

Apparently we're destined for gangs.  I'm on Ross's crew.

[KallMeKip]

Realy? I admit that the high school group I run for hang out 24/7 but Gang is such a harsh word.

[clockworkjoe]

Yeah I've heard about this. I think it's a stupid decision. He did murder someone but this metafilter post is quite insightful

Dehumanizing and oppressing prisoners is not the function of prison and is demonstrably counterproductive, dangerous and unconstitutional. Where the banning of D&D falls on the continuum of dehumanization and oppression, I am not prepared to argue, but I do have to respond to the knee-jerk "Prison is not supposed to be fun, duh! Don't let those fuckers do anything but rot" reaction. Regardless of whether you believe imprisonment is primarily punitive or primarily rehabilitative, you must acknowledge that at the end of service of sentence, the prison is released into the society from which he has been barred during his imprisonment. Regardless of the purpose of his imprisonment, we get him back at the end. It behooves us to make sure he doesn't come back less socialized.

Recently, I took my aunt to task to over this concept (I hope I wasn't disrespectful). She was shocked recently hearing in the press that civil rights groups challenge the exorbitant rate prisons charge for collect phone calls made by prisoners. She couldn't figure out why anyone should care that the rates were prohibitive because what business did prisoners have talking on the phone? See, she was looking at it like the prisoners were teenagers, hanging out in the their bedrooms chatting about American Idol, gossiping, goofing off on the phone, while they were supposed to be, you know, in prison, grounded, not having fun. What I said was "no-one is saying the phone calls need to be free. no-one is saying phone privileges need to be unlimited. But look at it this way. You've got a guy, sent to prison for five years for possession of a firearm. He loses his job; his apartment, probably his car, and he sits in prison doing nothing for five years. What happens when he gets out? Well, if he's been able to maintain some contact with his family or his friends, when he's released, he might have somewhere to stay. Charge his family $5/minute to talk to him on the phone when it's an eight-hour drive to the prison to visit him, and what sort of connection is he likely to maintain? What's going to happen to him when he gets out and he hasn't talked to a nonprisoner in five years? When his family feels guilty that they could not afford a phone call? or when they have permitted the loss of contact to erase this person completely from their life? Or should his girlfriend/wife/sister have to choose between paying her electric bill and letting the prisoner call home?" I asked her who she thought was paying for those phone calls. They aren't coming out of the prisoner's 401k or savings account. They are not coming out of his current earnings. Someone, not in prison, is paying for the phone calls, is depositing money into his prison account.

Prison is certainly appropriate for folks who commit crimes and are properly convicted and reasonably sentenced. Loss of privilege is the essence of imprisonment. So, yes, deny prisoners liberties and privilege. But the question of appropriate ways to deny prisoners liberties and privileges is a very dense question. Housing prisoners is expensive, complicated and dangerous; so the prisons must be able to control conditions to reduce expenses, simplify and keep prisoners and guards safe. Controlling access to the prisoners, to the outside world, to types of recreational activities is part of that. I'd never say it wasn't necessary.

However, treatment and control of prisoners directly affects reintegration. Reintegration affects recidivism, which affects costs, complications and safety of housing prisoners. Prison isn't supposed to be fun, no, I guess not. I doubt any of the permitted recreational activities in a prison would do much to change that. As a society, I think worrying about how much fun our prisoners might have is fairly ludicrous.

Also in the same mefi thread (I did not write this)

Newscaster: Dungeons and Dragons. Al Capone's game. Your prisoners, like it or not, are attracted in their weaker years to organized crime, and a game like D&D fuels their imagination and makes them feel special, while drawing them deeper and deeper into the bowels of La Cosa Nostra! This afternoon, the KARE 11 News Team invites you to sit in on an actual prison gaming session. Observe the previously unobservable as a hidden camera takes you to the Inner Cell of Dungeons and Dragons.

DM-bag: White Power Bill, you have entered the cell to the north. You are now by yourself, standing in a dark room. The pungent stench of mildew emanates from the wet prison walls.
Pruno: Where's my cigarettes?
DM-bag: They're right next to you.
White Power Bill: I shank a dude.
Pruno: Where's my Pruno?
DM-bag: In the toilet, duh!
White Power Bill: I wanna shank a dude!
Pruno: Can I have some Pruno?
DM-bag: Yes, you can have some Pruno, just go get it.
White Power Bill: I can shank anybody, right? In the prison?
DM-bag: Yes, any, any of the new fish.
Pruno: I'm gonna get some Pruno; anyone want some? Hey, DM-bag, I'm not in the cell, right?
DM-bag: What cell?
White Power Bill: I wanna shank...The Warden!
Pruno: The room where he's shanking all these dudes in!
DM-bag: He hasn't shanked anybody yet.
White Power Bill: I am though, if you'd listen. I'm shanking...The Warden.
DM-bag: Why are you shanking The Warden? There's no Warden to shank here!
White Power Bill: I...I'm shanking the darkness!
DM-bag: Fine, fine, you shank the darkness. There's a Crip in front of you.
Crip: Whoah! That's me, right?
DM-bag: He's wearing a grey bandana, and he has grey hair, and blue eyes...
Crip: No, I don't, I have grey eyes.
DM-bag: Let me see that sheet.
Crip: Well, it says I have...Well, it says here I have blue, but I decided I wanted grey eyes. It's my gang color.
DM-bag: Whatever. OK, you guys can talk to each other now, if you want.
White Power Bill: Hello.
Crip: Hello.
White Power Bill: I am White Power Bill, King of Waupun Cell Block C.
Crip: Then how come you had to shank The Warden?
DM-bag: You...you guys are being jumped.
Pruno: Do I see that happening?
DM-bag: No, you're outside, by the chow hall.
Pruno: Cool, I get drunk.
DM-bag: There are seven Bloods surrounding you.
Crip: How could they surround us? I had Little Fancy Mortie holding my pocket and being a lookout?
DM-bag: No, you didn't.
Pruno: I'm getting drunk. Are there any fish there?
Crip: I totally did! You asked me if I had my girlfriend smuggle in anything before this adventure and I said No. But I need a pack of cigarettes to buy Little Fancy Mortie. So I made him hold my pocket and watch out for Bloods!
DM-bag: But you never actually bought him.
Pruno: Roll the dice to see if I'm getting drunk.
DM-bag: (rolls dice) Yeah, you are.
Pruno: Are there any fish there?
DM-bag: Yeah.
Crip: I did though! I completely said when you asked me!
DM-bag: No you didn't! You didn't actually SAY that you were buying Mortie. So now there's
Bloods. OK?!
Pruno: Bloods?! Man, I got an toothbrush with a razor blade rubber banded to it! It could kill like 9 Bloods!
DM-bag: You're not there! You're getting drunk!
Pruno: OK, but if there's any fish there, I wanna DO them!

Newscaster: There you have it! A frightening look into America's most frightening penal institution. Remember that it's not the inmate's fault that they're being drawn into a Gangland world of nightmare. It's Hasbro's fault, for making them feel outcast, when they couldn't make one single saving throw.

[Tadanori Oyama]

I'll review what the posts Ross is citing. My inital responce is that I don't care for their reasoning and I also don't really give a fuck that prisoners aren't allowed to play D&D.

[Boyos]

FUCK ROSSES GANG IM JOINING THE Wu Tang CLAN WITH CODY!

[clockworkjoe]

I'll review what the posts Ross is citing. My inital responce is that I don't care for their reasoning and I also don't really give a fuck that prisoners aren't allowed to play D&D.

basically it boils down to:

Most prisoners are going to be released back into society sooner or later

The worse they're treated in prison, the more likely they will become a recidivist

D&D is a privilege and it isn't a big deal by itself but you think have to think of the big picture.

We should strive for rehabilitation for pragmatic reasons. It will cost society less in the long run.

[Boyos]

Lawl did you see Penny-arcades comic about it. Verry funny!

[IDaMan008]

Lawl did you see Penny-arcades comic about it. Verry funny!

I did see it, and I agree that it was hysterical. I think Tycho said it best in his news post, where he wrote:

It sucks when the guards are all coming down on your shit, and, like, taking your stuff, but it also sucks pretty bad to be beaten to death with a sledgehammer, which is what this guy did to get in there. Tends to dilute the sympathy.

[malyss]

While I believe that their logic was flawed, I don't have a great problem with them removing the books - what I would have a problem with is restricting their right to have an imagination. That is what it implies in the statement - that they might fantasize about escape. No shit. Really? Fucking genius. I have never met a prisoner who didn't fancy a bit more freedom.

I don't believe they could demonstrate that D&D is a tool to enable escape. If anything, it may allow them to serve their time more peacefully and creatively instead of plotting to escape. I don't need to kill people in real life because I can get that little fantasy out of the way through my imagination... imagine what would happen if the only way you were permitted to experience something was through the actual act of doing it?

Humans are, I believe, the only species that has been proven to have the ability to learn from hypothetical scenarios. We don't have to learn solely from our own or others' mistakes - we can visualize an outcome based solely on other experiences and extrapolate a plausible outcome and by doing so, choose to act in a manner that would either likely bring about or avoid that outcome.

Would they take away his pencil and paper if he started writing fiction about a prisoner? How about if it wasn't fiction but was a journal? Many psychologists recommend people to document their experiences and thoughts and reflect on them. When does that cross this line that they are imposing?

Anyway, just saying. My sympathy is mitigated by his crime, but just because he killed someone doesn't mean he stopped being human. That is a genetic discussion and not open to behavioural debate - his actions may reflect more appropriately on another species, but he still is one of our species. Whether we like it or not.

That also opens the door to what level of punishment is appropriate for which crime - does all incarceration carry the same rules? What if he was guilty of tax fraud and was in jail? Would it then be ok for him to game?