A Study in the Logic of Gaming

[Maze]

You can make him behind the scene so that with some investigating, they find out he's pulling the strings but he's either very remotely situated, his whereabouts are unknown or he's very well guarded.

So he can the main enemy although the players never actually met him, or met him before they knew he was an enemy and no longer have any contact with him. You can make the whole tracking him down ordeal quite interesting pretty easily.

I think smarter is better than stronger for the simple reason that the smarter one won't get himself killed in the way that the big strong bad guy will.

[Tadanori Oyama]

I had both this time. I purposefully selected four elites and one solo to act as named enemies. Nobody got to names.

I thought to myself: I haven't had named enemies for awhile. My players said they want story info, I'm sure they'll be interested to conversing with clearly modivated villains. Ha ha, how little I've learned, eh?

Oh, and they also slaughtered around half a dozen innoccent NPCs who where attempting to flee the conflict. In their defense, the NPCs didn't look human. But when your in an elemental "village" besieged by metal spiders and tieflings, do you really expect to see human peasants? I at least managed to make them feel bad about it.

Well, most of them. The psyco fighter didn't even notice.

Anyway, the elities when down after some pounding. When they found out the solo guy was tough enough to be a real threat they started complaining. Fucking gamers.

[clockworkjoe]

A central tenet of gamer logic: Something is too hard if we're losing, regardless of any other factors.

[Maze]

Another one: If he's confident, he's probably invincible.

[wrotenbe]

Another; If our first tactic doesn't work, it's only because of GM metagaming

[dragonshaos]

When fighting a boss, characters will instinctively look for some object around the room to use, such as a chandelier, a lever, a button, a coffin, etc, assuming that it will effectively trap/ bind/ kill said enemy.

[Maze]

Another; If our first tactic doesn't work, it's only because of GM metagaming

GM metagaming? How could a GM not let his choice be affected by the conditions outside the games at all time! His whole purpose is to provide an universe for the players to have fun in. If he wasn't taking in consideration the players, they'd be facing way too high level enemies or simply doing nothing.

Actually, if the  first tactic doesn't work, it's either because he's got other better plans for the players, because it's completely retarded, thank you player logic, or that he's kind of a dick and doesn't want to be out-smarted by players.

I know what you mean but man, if a player told me I was metagaming as a GM, I WOULD punch him in the fucking throat.

When fighting a boss, characters will instinctively look for some object around the room to use, such as a chandelier, a lever, a button, a coffin, etc, assuming that it will effectively trap/ bind/ kill said enemy.

Your players do that? You're lucky they even consider the room for more than tiles. Standard D&D players don't really know they ARE in an actual place filled with various objects. It's just a 10x15 room or whatever. Few of my players ever used concealment.

[dragonshaos]

When I GM my players are so paranoid about what's behind every corner they try to use Sneak ALL the time.  Even when there's nothing to hide behind.  My players have become VERY tactical with every fight, wanting to know what they can use and what the enemy could do.  It's pretty frustrating alot o the time when it'll be a simple room with a goblin hiding in the corner.  Fights drag on and they like when I explain EVERY little detail of the room so they don't miss ANYTHING.

[clockworkjoe]

Old School player logic taken to its logical conclusion http://members.dslextreme.com/users/rogermw/ADnD/

"I'm twentieth level, actually."

Wierd Dough's jaw dropped.  "How did you get so many experience points so quickly?"

"Well, how'd you guys get your experience points?"

Clerasil cleared his throat.  "I plane-travelled to the Abyss and cleaned out all the demon lords."

"Likewise," Wierd Dough said.  "I went down through the nine circles of Hell and destroyed all the arch-devils.  And a good deal of greater devils to boot.  Nothing like a pair of petrification glasses with the lenses put in backwards."

Peter Perfect inhaled and exhaled contentedly.  "I got my ten levels from one lowly centaur."

"WHAT?!" the other two said in unison.

"Half the centaurs carry gems, right?  This one happened to be carrying a couple million gold pieces worth.  I just cut him in half, stole his gems, and got one experience point for every gold piece they were worth."

Clerasil quickly hauled out the Book of Infinite Wisdom.  "Hey, that's right!  A single gem can be worth up to a million gold pieces, if you roll the dice right."

"Well, what are we waiting for?" asked Wierd Dough.  "Let's go mug a centaur and take his four one-million-gold-piece gems!"

"Kill a centaur and take his four 1 000 000 g.p. gems," Peter Perfect corrected them.

#

Three centaurs later, Clerasil's level went from 28th to 38th, and Wierd Dough's jumped from 18th (just barely arch-mage status) to a whopping 49th.  They would have gone farther, but that was maximum spell ability in their campaign.  Clerasil could now cast ten of each of the seven levels of clerical spells per day (plus 2 each 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spells due to his superior strength of will), and Wierd Dough could cast 13 of each of the nine levels of magic-user spells each day (well, 26 actually, thanks to his 5 rings of wizardry).

They also had an extra 12 million gold pieces between themselves to spend.  Digging up another obscure rule, they found a use for a couple million of them: By using the psychic plane-travel ability, they could not only survive contact with a small black hole but actually destroy it and gain another major psychic power in the process.  They each bought about 30 black holes ("Spheres of Annihilation," they were called on the open black market) for some 30 000 gold pieces apiece, ran into each one, and gained every psychic discipline known to man and god alike.  These made a fine addition to the spells and potions whose effects had been made permanent upon them, and let them keep pace with Peter Perfect who had already gone through the spheres-of-annihilation bit before they'd even thought of it.

The whole group was decked out almost beyond recognition.  Enough rings, cloaks, magic armor and shields, bracelets of defense, and sundry magic gadgets to bring their armor classes down to the lowest allowable in the universe, -10; protection scarabs with enough gear to give them a 95% chance of avoiding the effects of magic that is supposed to be unavoidable; three or four different magic helms, all stacked one within the other, with the outer one bearing gems of explosive proportions; rings on each finger, covered by dexterity gloves, covered again by another ring on each finger; and all the wands of automatic missile fire stored inside their portable holes.

Ringman peered through the trees carefully at the group.  With all their magic items, they must have detected him by now, he figured.  They doubtlessly wanted him to see what power they held.  It was disgusting.

"Do you realize how powerful we are now?" Wierd Dough asked.  "We could take on an army and win!"

"Ah, from such humble beginnings spring such mighty oaks," Clerasil mused.

"Oaks can be cut down," Peter commented, symbolically swinging his Axe of the Dwarvish Lords through the air.  "We can't.  And as I recall, our beginnings weren't too humble."

"I was there, remember?" Clerasil replied.  "We were in that dungeon together.  The experience point values of the magic items alone was enough to boost us both to ninth level.  The Dungeon Master" — his voice quavered in fear as he spoke the words — "would have sealed us off and doomed us in a half-mile-thick concrete prison if you hadn't threatened to kill off the characters he was running in your campaign."

"Yeah, and then he got tired of that campaign anyway," Peter noted.

"In any event," Wierd Dough continued, "We are positively disgusting in our power level.  Holy swords and artifacts are nothing more than furniture to us.  Look at that stack of artifacts Clerasil has."

Clerasil blushed.

"There must be others like us in the world.  I know there must, because I've picked up several high-powered dummies on my crystal ball who didn't have the foresight to wear a detection-proof amulet.  I say we form a union — a worldwide union.  All the disgusting characters from around the globe can come to meet here on the shores of Crysglass lake, on this very spot."  He drew Excalibur, his +6 dagger of sharpness.  Peter Perfect followed his example and drew Prometheus, as did Clerasil who drew Mjolnir, his sentient hammer of thunderbolts.  They raised their weapons together to the sky.  "And we shall call it . . . the Intercontinental Union of Disgusting Characters!"

'I think I'm going to be sick,' thought Ringman.

[Tadanori Oyama]

I planned for them to use the environment. The room was lite by six bright orbs on top of tall poles. The orbs can be broken, dealing radiant damage in a burst and giving whatever they hit radiant vulnerability. The first round one of the NPCs does it to the PCs to show them it can be done. Still wasn't until about half way through the fight one of the players figured it out.

The minions regenerated every round unless killed by Fire or Radiant damage. The solo could be beaten down normally but he had a ton of HP. The stacked vulnerabilities would make it easier to take him down. Nobody got it until very nearly the end of the fight.

In the end I'm sure I would've dropped at least two of them (downed, not dead) except about five crits hit the table. I don't even consider that a very big deal. Going down to zero HP in 4th Ed is really not that big a deal.

[rayner23]

Probably my worst moment in gamer logic was this:

****SPOILERS FOR NEW WORLD CAMPAIGN****

A slave trader comes into our camp and starts shit with us. Everyone starts puffing their chests out and acting all tough and so I did it too. I don't quite remember how it all went down, but eventually I was accused of assault on this guy (for once, I didn't do anything, he just framed me).

Everyone started planning revenge and getting pissed off and I shouted, "this guy is like Lex Luthor times ten!!!"

Ross's response was similiar to a very patient parent, "Yes because this guy framed you for assault he is not only Lex Luthor, but he is ten times the evil genius that Luthor is. He is so brilliant isn't he?"

This goes back to the idea that anyone who beats a PC is clearly the most brilliant and diabolical villain of all time and he must be stopped at all cost!

[wrotenbe]

I know what you mean but man, if a player told me I was metagaming as a GM, I WOULD punch him in the fucking throat.

I agree completely, but throat punching impertinent players that got me barred from OrcTech and Thunderdome. Now I have to run games at Shoneys for all the other social misanthropes and outcasts.

[Maze]

It makes for good youtube videos though. Nothing like players attacking other players physically on video.

[Tadanori Oyama]

It can be entertaining to see some table top players go LARP on each other.

[wrotenbe]

Are you not entertained? ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!?!