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General Category => RPGs => : VampireVladd August 19, 2010, 09:56:15 PM

: Superhero RPG
: VampireVladd August 19, 2010, 09:56:15 PM
I have just listened to the Age of Masks all the way through and first of all, that was an awesome story. I would like to try to run that for my group, but I need a solid easy to use quick Superhero system.  I have GURPS supers, but as I have said before, Even though it will let you do anything, the rules for creating characters are very hard. So I have a couple of questions.

1. Is M&M hard?

There is a couple of copies of M&M 2ed at my book seller for cheap but I don't want to waste money on a convoluted system.

2. Is there a better system than the ones I have asked about?

All help would be great.
: Re: Superhero RPG
: Kroack August 19, 2010, 10:10:52 PM
1.) Yes. Very confusing.

2.) Wild Talents or Godlike

: Re: Superhero RPG
: Mckma August 19, 2010, 10:40:17 PM
Mutants and Masterminds is complicated, yes, but it is an interesting system and I think it looks like it works pretty well for the d20 system.  From what I've heard about Wild Talents, I would agree with Kroack on going with that, but MM may be worth your while to pick up if you just like picking up RPG systems and it is "cheap" (which is a relative term and it all depends on how much you would want to pay for something you may or may not decide to use)...
: Re: Superhero RPG
: VampireVladd August 19, 2010, 10:44:37 PM
Let me add that while I don't like the creation system in GURPS I do like that you don't get experience points and levels, you just get more points to spend as you go on. I feel that is more realistic. But then again that is just me.
: Re: Superhero RPG
: Ryo August 19, 2010, 11:13:08 PM
M&M (civilized) is a very good if somewhat generic system. Character building can be complex, but it balances well, unless you really know how to work it and your Gm doesn't.

WT (wild west) is more a wild and crazy, over the top type of game. The rules aren't hard, but the book makes them hard to figure out. The system doesn't balance well, but a GM can trump just about anything a character can make.

In M&M each character is going to be close powerwise to one another. Assuming the GM makes sure the built in limits are being used.

In WT characters can vary widely in terms of power and you want to make some houserules or a player can abuse the system badly (hard dice in attack powers).
: Re: Superhero RPG
: siriq August 20, 2010, 01:10:19 PM
I found with wild talents after you read the rules twice you can understand what is going on and then can easily explained to other players.  If you know the rules character creations is fairly simple and there is room for alot of fluff and back story.  Like said before you may want to house rule hd and maybe wiggle dice.  They lend themselves to power gaming and hd are inexpensive compared to the benefit.
: Re: Superhero RPG
: ArtfulShrapnel August 20, 2010, 06:07:12 PM
I found with wild talents after you read the rules twice you can understand what is going on and then can easily explained to other players.  If you know the rules character creations is fairly simple and there is room for alot of fluff and back story.  Like said before you may want to house rule hd and maybe wiggle dice.  They lend themselves to power gaming and hd are inexpensive compared to the benefit.

Personally, I turned Hard Dice into what I call "Auto Dice". They can be set to any number before a roll, but no two can be the same number. If you have multiple Auto Dice they can, instead of being rolled, count as a single Set that has a height of 0.

Thus, if they are used for a useful ability like "flight" the matched set can be used to auto-activate it so you can fly around at will. It has a similar effect with abilities like regeneration, multiple actions, and generally anything else where the power activating is all that really matters. They still have to be rolled when used for a defends or attacks action, since in those cases rolls must have a height to be effective, and they essentially count as Expert Dice. If you want to auto-hit someone in the head every round, or have a perfect defense that can't be avoided, you'll have to purchase two or more Wiggle Dice, or a Wiggle Die and an Auto Die.
: Re: Superhero RPG
: Kroack August 20, 2010, 08:46:57 PM
Let me add that while I don't like the creation system in GURPS I do like that you don't get experience points and levels, you just get more points to spend as you go on. I feel that is more realistic. But then again that is just me.

GURPS isn't for everyone, but I think it's less complicated than M&M and creates more interesting characters.
: Re: Superhero RPG
: VampireVladd August 20, 2010, 09:40:53 PM
I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest here. Thank you for all of your advice.
: Re: Superhero RPG
: Ryo August 20, 2010, 09:59:28 PM
Its not a hornets nest. Each system has its + and -, you just need to decide which one comes closest to your playstyle.
: Re: Superhero RPG
: Mckma August 20, 2010, 10:03:27 PM
I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest here. Thank you for all of your advice.

We at RPPR love us some debating!
: Re: Superhero RPG
: clockworkjoe August 23, 2010, 12:41:54 AM

In M&M each character is going to be close powerwise to one another. Assuming the GM makes sure the built in limits are being used.


No, this isn't true. Last year, RJ and Tom both ran M&M games that fizzled out because PCs had wildly varying power levels - all were PL 10 but some players were more effective and efficient because they were created by players who knew the rules better.

Any point buy system with a great deal of complexity has this flaw to one level or the other.

You see, there's this topic in game design called system mastery. The term means that a player's knowledge of the game's rules gives him an inherent advantage in the game. For example, in 3E D&D, there are many feats but many of them suck ass - like toughness which gives a flat +3 hit point bonus. Compare this to weapon focus which gives a +1 to hit with a given weapon.

a person with low system mastery would probably take toughness over weapon focus since that gives a higher bonus

a person with high system mastery will take weapon focus because that +1 to hit is much more important than 3 extra HP.


System Mastery is a much bigger deal in M&M than in WT in my opinion.
: Re: Superhero RPG
: ArtfulShrapnel August 23, 2010, 02:01:50 AM
System Mastery is a much bigger deal in M&M than in WT in my opinion.

I will wholeheartedly agree with this. My experience with WT is that more experienced players tend to end up with more powers that are cheaper but they do so by stacking tons of restrictions onto how their powers may be used that create opportunities to fuck them over and let other people shine.

There is still room for munchkin-y minmaxing, as with any game, but I feel there is a less humongous advantage to be gained by knowing the system better.
: Re: Superhero RPG
: Ryo August 23, 2010, 07:11:26 AM
System Mastery is a much bigger deal in M&M than in WT in my opinion.

I will wholeheartedly agree with this. My experience with WT is that more experienced players tend to end up with more powers that are cheaper but they do so by stacking tons of restrictions onto how their powers may be used that create opportunities to fuck them over and let other people shine.

There is still room for munchkin-y minmaxing, as with any game, but I feel there is a less humongous advantage to be gained by knowing the system better.
Well GM knowledge is important in just about any game. In M&M arrays can be a problem. I'm not sure M&M is that much more complex than WT, but its been awhile since I played M&M.
: Re: Superhero RPG
: infinitejesting August 23, 2010, 01:08:04 PM
If you're looking for a different type of superhero game, there's Mutant City Blues.  Essentially, everybody plays superpowered cops who solve crimes dealing with, you guessed it, superpowers.  Character creation is fairly balanced, and the game presents some interesting ideas.

Mutant City Blues lends itself to CSI or Law and Order type games, but I REALLY want to play The Wire, but with superpowers.  Can't find a group though :(
: Re: Superhero RPG
: mathey August 24, 2010, 03:10:08 PM
Mutants and Masterminds: I don't see how its complicated (everything's just based off of 1d20 rolls), but it certainly can feature power balance issues. In my tabletop campaign with the 1st Edition rules, for example, I had a player who could Boost and Heal herself and other PCs to a degree which was ridiculous and totally unbalancing. The 3rd Edition rules (which is what the new DC Adventures game uses) looks more solid and accounts for more power level considerations - but its still a game that relies on GM oversight and an understanding at the table of what is and isn't fair. The rules admit as much.

Wild Talents: Wild Talents is theoretically faster via ORE (One Roll Engine: everything's based off finding matches in a pool of 1 to 10 dice), but in practice I've found it to be about the same speed as M&M when you account for people trying to figure out when things happen relative to one another and the effects of their actions. You can shave off some complexity like Ross did in the Age of Masks game, however, fudging the details to keep it quick. Balance wise, I'd say its got less loopholes than M&M, but it also has sidebars where they mention how it can get totally out of whack if your players like to Optimize without some GM feedback. In a WT PBP game I'm currently running, I've discussed letting people redo some stats since the guys with big die pools get the shaft relative to those who (more wisely) invested in Hard and Wild Dice. I'd run Godlike before but I forgot how much of a vast gulf lies between them.

Y'know, I can't think of a single superhero system worth a damn that doesn't have potential for absurd and unbalanced character builds. If you have player crafted abilities and offer ways for them to tweak the costs and potency, initial balance gets a lot fuzzier. What at first seemed "weak" can become monstrous in actual play, and what first seemed "overpowered" can be watered down to becoming essentially meaningless. You can TRY and lock down abuse by systems on top of systems with layers of cost controls (Hero is probably an example of this), but those pesky players will still find a way.

Ultimately, its probably best to get on the same page with your players about what the power level of the game is, review all stats, and be open to fudgery and tinkering if/when things don't line up like you all feel they should. The system can spin this, but I might argue it has more to do with how much crunch and workload you all like more than anything else.
: Re: Superhero RPG
: Salrantol August 24, 2010, 03:30:21 PM
Wild Talents is very abusable*, but it's honest enough to tell you that.  It is also a simple enough system that you will have a much easier time spotting any abuses before they are used in play.



*--Try running the math on extra defends levels.  If I remember the time I ran the numbers correctly, you can get 10 permanent interference with a height of 10 for just over 70 points if you do it right.
: Re: Superhero RPG
: clockworkjoe August 24, 2010, 09:41:41 PM
The complexity in M&M comes in character generation not task resolution - as an example the default PC pregen templates are pretty sucky compared to PCs built with arrays.

Also some powers are inherently more effective in combat than others - why take an attack power that requires a roll to hit when you can take powers that automatically force a saving throw?

: Re: Superhero RPG
: mathey August 25, 2010, 08:32:40 AM
The complexity in M&M comes in character generation not task resolution - as an example the default PC pregen templates are pretty sucky compared to PCs built with arrays.

Also some powers are inherently more effective in combat than others - why take an attack power that requires a roll to hit when you can take powers that automatically force a saving throw?

Yeah, that's all fair criticism. I think they did some interesting things with both issues in the version that appears in DC Adventures, but you can still end up with very big gaps in the optimization of two PCs with the same Power Level. Angel Summoner etc.

I don't suppose anybody's had a chance to try Icons? Its also by Steve Kenson, but its got more to do with FATE than D20. I don't have it, but I heard there's random character generation to make it fast for pick-up games. I was suspicious but then I saw this (http://"http://files.me.com/stevekenson/we65pd"), which I think is kind of great. Its probably even more dependent on GM-and-player cohesion, but if you're curious about lighter rules sets for costumed metahuman hijinks, it may be worth checking out.
: Re: Superhero RPG
: enigmatic September 15, 2010, 12:20:05 PM
I like the Wild Talents system, but I have no clue how to create a decent villain/foe.  I've only got the Essential Edition, if that matters.  Any suggestions on how to balance enemies/dice pool encounters? If I need to wing it, I need to look at the math behind stuff more so I know how stuff really interacts.

And I've wanted Mutant City Blues ever since I heard about it in an RPPR AP (Well, the gumshoe system).
: Re: Superhero RPG
: clockworkjoe September 15, 2010, 01:05:15 PM
I like the Wild Talents system, but I have no clue how to create a decent villain/foe.  I've only got the Essential Edition, if that matters.  Any suggestions on how to balance enemies/dice pool encounters? If I need to wing it, I need to look at the math behind stuff more so I know how stuff really interacts.

And I've wanted Mutant City Blues ever since I heard about it in an RPPR AP (Well, the gumshoe system).

depends a lot on your PCs obviously.


Arc Dream just released a new WT adventure with pregen PCs and NPCs http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=83968

you can get that to get an idea