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General Category => RPGs => : sarendt March 04, 2010, 04:02:08 PM

: War in table top RPG's?
: sarendt March 04, 2010, 04:02:08 PM
So I was reading this article on io9 and got to thinking this would make an interesting subject for RPPR forums.

http://io9.com/5481380/your-military-science-fiction-isnt-really-military-science-fiction (http://io9.com/5481380/your-military-science-fiction-isnt-really-military-science-fiction)

Has anyone been in or run a game with a war going on?  Was it believeable?  What aspects of the game made the war feel more or less believeable?  Any other thoughts?

-Scott
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: Order66 March 04, 2010, 04:04:53 PM
So I was reading this article on io9 and got to thinking this would make an interesting subject for RPPR forums.

http://io9.com/5481380/your-military-science-fiction-isnt-really-military-science-fiction (http://io9.com/5481380/your-military-science-fiction-isnt-really-military-science-fiction)

Has anyone been in or run a game with a war going on?  Was it believeable?  What aspects of the game made the war feel more or less believeable?  Any other thoughts?

-Scott

i have not done so but i have thought of it
but my pcs are probaly gona make the war themselves
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: Setherick March 04, 2010, 04:17:19 PM
So I was reading this article on io9 and got to thinking this would make an interesting subject for RPPR forums.

http://io9.com/5481380/your-military-science-fiction-isnt-really-military-science-fiction (http://io9.com/5481380/your-military-science-fiction-isnt-really-military-science-fiction)

Has anyone been in or run a game with a war going on?  Was it believeable?  What aspects of the game made the war feel more or less believeable?  Any other thoughts?

-Scott

The new New World campaign that hasn't started will focus on war and revolution. A few years back, Ross ran an epic game that featured a war as its subtext. All the players were epic level commanders that had their own armies and were having to join forces to fight off an invasion.
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: clockworkjoe March 04, 2010, 04:22:46 PM
The reason military sci-fi is basically retreads of WW2 with sci-fi dressing is because military sci-fi fans have huge boners for WW2 and will never get sick of re-reading the battle of the bulge but with robots.
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: Order66 March 04, 2010, 04:25:40 PM
The reason military sci-fi is basically retreads of WW2 with sci-fi dressing is because military sci-fi fans have huge boners for WW2 and will never get sick of re-reading the battle of the bulge but with robots.

hmmm
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: Charlie72 March 04, 2010, 04:28:13 PM
The reason military sci-fi is basically retreads of WW2 with sci-fi dressing is because military sci-fi fans have huge boners for WW2 and will never get sick of re-reading the battle of the bulge but with robots.
Giant or Regular sized robots?
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: sarendt March 04, 2010, 04:34:06 PM
The new New World campaign that hasn't started will focus on war and revolution. A few years back, Ross ran an epic game that featured a war as its subtext. All the players were epic level commanders that had their own armies and were having to join forces to fight off an invasion.

Could you give more details about it?  What system was it in?  Did it feature large tables full of mini's to represent the battles?  Did you have to mod the rules to make the battles work?  What type of events (roleplaying or just back story) led up to the war?  What type of narative or characters in game made it a believealbe war setting? 

-Scott
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: Mckma March 04, 2010, 05:01:13 PM
Haven't read the article yet, but the current game I am running in theory eventually devolves into a world war.  I think the biggest trick is going to be putting the players in some big battles without it getting really bogged down.  The rest of the time I am planning on mostly using it as a backdrop to make things interesting as they run around adventuring.

I've read the Heroes of Battle or whatever from DnD 3.5 and found that useful and helpful.
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: clockworkjoe March 04, 2010, 05:09:10 PM
The reason military sci-fi is basically retreads of WW2 with sci-fi dressing is because military sci-fi fans have huge boners for WW2 and will never get sick of re-reading the battle of the bulge but with robots.

hmmm

it's true you know it
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: Order66 March 04, 2010, 05:10:30 PM
The reason military sci-fi is basically retreads of WW2 with sci-fi dressing is because military sci-fi fans have huge boners for WW2 and will never get sick of re-reading the battle of the bulge but with robots.

hmmm

it's true you know it


very intreasting hoe does that make you feel?
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: robotkarateman March 04, 2010, 05:25:01 PM
The reason military sci-fi is basically retreads of WW2 with sci-fi dressing is because military sci-fi fans have huge boners for WW2 and will never get sick of re-reading the battle of the bulge but with robots.

That's a goddamned dirty lie.

All of my RPG battles have been retreads of the Battle of the Five Armies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Five_Armies#Battle_of_Five_Armies).
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: Setherick March 04, 2010, 05:37:27 PM
The new New World campaign that hasn't started will focus on war and revolution. A few years back, Ross ran an epic game that featured a war as its subtext. All the players were epic level commanders that had their own armies and were having to join forces to fight off an invasion.

Could you give more details about it?  What system was it in?  Did it feature large tables full of mini's to represent the battles?  Did you have to mod the rules to make the battles work?  What type of events (roleplaying or just back story) led up to the war?  What type of narative or characters in game made it a believealbe war setting? 

-Scott

In the epic campaign, we had one battle with a map full of minis. The other battles were done tactically without using a map and involved describing troop movements, fortifications, treaties, etc.
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: Tadanori Oyama March 04, 2010, 05:50:05 PM
The reason military sci-fi is basically retreads of WW2 with sci-fi dressing is because military sci-fi fans have huge boners for WW2 and will never get sick of re-reading the battle of the bulge but with robots.

Well I like World War 2 and now I have a boner so I guess I can't argue.

Anyway I've tried war several times in my games. My original D&D game, the first thing I ran, spent it's last quarter detailing a war between the PC's country and the evil nation nearby ruled by an evil dragon. That was pretty vague since it was a first time game and everyone was in high school.

Lately I've found myself flirting with war often. My Epic D&D game recently was entirely about war. My PCs where not interested in the specifics of the war, though I offered them the positions of generals and tacticaians in the setting. They only wanted to kill dudes of their own level so they got turned into a NAVY Seals style unit.

CthulhuTech is all about war, several different ones occuring at the same time infact. Tried to push that but about half my players didn't want to deal with what they considered a depressing setting (it's based on the Cthulhu Mythos so humanity is losing the war). So we played a Tager game that was more akin to supernatural superheroes.

So, yes, I want to do war but my players won't let me.

*sigh*
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: clockworkjoe March 04, 2010, 07:20:12 PM
The reason military sci-fi is basically retreads of WW2 with sci-fi dressing is because military sci-fi fans have huge boners for WW2 and will never get sick of re-reading the battle of the bulge but with robots.

That's a goddamned dirty lie.

All of my RPG battles have been retreads of the Battle of the Five Armies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Five_Armies#Battle_of_Five_Armies).

trap sprung

LOTR is WW2
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: Tadanori Oyama March 04, 2010, 07:24:56 PM
The reason military sci-fi is basically retreads of WW2 with sci-fi dressing is because military sci-fi fans have huge boners for WW2 and will never get sick of re-reading the battle of the bulge but with robots.

That's a goddamned dirty lie.

All of my RPG battles have been retreads of the Battle of the Five Armies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Five_Armies#Battle_of_Five_Armies).

trap sprung

LOTR is WW2

I think that's a little extreme. I mean, Lord of the Rings is really a story of an alliance of countries on the west side against an alliance of countries on the east side and... crap.
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: Kroack March 04, 2010, 07:36:56 PM
There's no evil dictator at all. Hehe.
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: ristarr March 04, 2010, 08:28:10 PM
I think the best way to find out about how to add warfare in an RPG would be to contribute to a new ransom for a campaign setting about war in a fantasy environment.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rosspayton/codex-of-war-a-new-world-4e-dandd-campaign-setting
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: Kroack March 04, 2010, 09:59:41 PM
I think the best way to find out about how to add warfare in an RPG would be to contribute to a new ransom for a campaign setting about war in a fantasy environment.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rosspayton/codex-of-war-a-new-world-4e-dandd-campaign-setting


Interforum advertising ftw!!
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: Setherick March 04, 2010, 10:01:22 PM
I think the best way to find out about how to add warfare in an RPG would be to contribute to a new ransom for a campaign setting about war in a fantasy environment.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rosspayton/codex-of-war-a-new-world-4e-dandd-campaign-setting


Interforum advertising ftw!!

That's right and with $871 left to go in the ransom. You guys need to open up your wallets and break out those credit cards. And then tell two friends and have them do the same. And those two friends, tell two more.
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: nbneil March 04, 2010, 10:27:27 PM
The Hard Boiled Armies supplement over at RPGNow was pretty helpful for giving some ideas on running wars in D&D.  It's pretty obvious, but had some good hints.  I used it in our New World campaign for one of the battles and with some tweaking think it could be pretty cool.  It's mostly about some flavor text and modifying a few of the mechanics.  I'll probably use it again to have some tactical battles on a larger scale.  Hopefully it goes smoothly next time.
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: sarendt March 05, 2010, 10:26:59 AM
The reason military sci-fi is basically retreads of WW2 with sci-fi dressing is because military sci-fi fans have huge boners for WW2 and will never get sick of re-reading the battle of the bulge but with robots.


That's a goddamned dirty lie.

All of my RPG battles have been retreads of the Battle of the Five Armies.


trap sprung

LOTR is WW2

I believe it was WWI... Tolkien was in WWI, wrote alot of the foundation for the similarion while in the trench's, or so I am told via the history of the LoTR stuff...

The Hard Boiled Armies supplement over at RPGNow was pretty helpful for giving some ideas on running wars in D&D.  It's pretty obvious, but had some good hints.  I used it in our New World campaign for one of the battles and with some tweaking think it could be pretty cool.  It's mostly about some flavor text and modifying a few of the mechanics.  I'll probably use it again to have some tactical battles on a larger scale.  Hopefully it goes smoothly next time.

Details?  Which hints stand out?  What were the mechanism's that they suggest changing? 

What did your players think of the battle?  Could you describe how the battle was played out?  Did you use tons of Mini's or just draw stuff on a map? 

-Scott
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: Sean-o-tron March 05, 2010, 10:48:03 AM
As a tangent, the newest episode of The Bear Swarm! Podcast (http://www.bearswarm.com/episode-98-mass-combat) is about mass combat.  It's mostly them brandishing huge chubbies for Legend of the 5 Rings' mass combat system, but there's still some interesting bits.
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: Tadanori Oyama March 05, 2010, 11:29:35 AM
As a tangent, the newest episode of The Bear Swarm! Podcast (http://www.bearswarm.com/episode-98-mass-combat) is about mass combat.  It's mostly them brandishing huge chubbies for Legend of the 5 Rings' mass combat system, but there's still some interesting bits.

Didn't know it had one. I should probably read the book, since I own it and all.

Alot of games where leadership is a major focus have mass combat rules, Exalted and Warcraft being the two that I've read through.

And there is Reign, the One Roll Engine game where you play national leaders. I haven't gotten that book yet (though I will) but I imagine one has to deal with army level combat in that setting.
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: sarendt March 05, 2010, 11:45:58 AM
And there is Reign, the One Roll Engine game where you play national leaders. I haven't gotten that book yet (though I will) but I imagine one has to deal with army level combat in that setting.

If you get a chance to read any of those, I would enjoy hearing your thoughts about them.

-Scott
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: sarendt March 05, 2010, 12:33:58 PM
As a tangent, the newest episode of The Bear Swarm! Podcast (http://www.bearswarm.com/episode-98-mass-combat) is about mass combat.  It's mostly them brandishing huge chubbies for Legend of the 5 Rings' mass combat system, but there's still some interesting bits.

Just finished this podcast, I was impressed, I enjoyed their points and the detail of why they liked one way or another.  I would recomend this to anyone who is interested in adding a bit of 'War' into you game.

-Scott
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: Tadanori Oyama March 05, 2010, 12:46:21 PM
So what exactly are you looking for with war? There's mechanically expressing battle and tactics in a game system and then there's replicating the emotional and mental state of the civilization currently involved in a war. The two methods of play are very different, though they can be used together.
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: sarendt March 05, 2010, 01:23:42 PM
So what exactly are you looking for with war? There's mechanically expressing battle and tactics in a game system and then there's replicating the emotional and mental state of the civilization currently involved in a war. The two methods of play are very different, though they can be used together.

I am looking for both, defiently used togeather.  To me a war is not something one could drop into a game, not very realisticly at least.  The article I started with reviews some of the ideas that there is a 'TON' of stuff that goes into waging war.  Troops need to be massed, trainned, outfitted, moved to the 'front' and then resupplied and fed.  This shouldn't happen in a vacuum, even if its happening hundred of miles away the rumors should be flying!

On the other side, towns that aren't on the front would be missing major man power, they should simply 'feel' different if the players have been there.  Possibly there should be funerals going on if the war has been going on for a while.  Town folk with amutated limbs should be wandering the land. Towns on the front could have nearly no one in them, folk would tend to move away lest they and their family get killed or captured.  Some buildings would be looted destroyed possibly.

Creating a war in a game world I believe could be a great addition to the background of the game, even if the players don't choose to be involved much.  If it is developed slowly and the players get to hear both sides point of view maybe thier isn't a wrong side, individual players could choose different sides to side with.  Just moving around the country side would be more of a challenge as passing through one sides lines could be a whole encounter in it self, to roleplay or fight as the players choose.

Does that help explain what I am looking for?  I have lots of ideas, I just wanted to expand my ideas and maybe include some real play examples to base the ideas off of.

-Scott
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: sarendt March 05, 2010, 01:44:00 PM
Some more thoughts I had.

If the players are involved with the war, how do their actions effect the outcome of it?  There are simple answers, in a given battle, if they fight and do well that battle goes well, less cassulties on that side etc.

What if the players have to choose from multiple options.  Go to this town and help hold the bridge there, or travel to that mountain pass and hold it. Sneak behind enemy lines and harass the enemies supply lines, capture a general from the other side and return him to our side.  

If the war is dynamic, the situation should change regularly, each desision the players make leads to a new battle field with new tactical options, with new benifits and challenges from the last time they looked, so to speak.


An example:  The players choose to help defend the town so to prevent civilian casulties, thus the mountain pass has been takin and reinforced with a hastiliy built fort, but the players managed to recruit more troops from the town they saved so they have a little more resources to work with.  Having preserved the bridge gives the players the option of moving behind enemy lines, but they must move out quickly before the enemy closes the gap.  The general that was moving forward with his troops because they were winning now feels unsafe and moves his command tent to a much more secure location.


The more I think about it, as the GM, you need to have a fairly complicated set of situations built to handle the first few desicion points the players make and still keep things moving.  Making a flow chart seems like a reasonable idea for the war and the choices the players make.

-Scott

**modified for sig
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: clockworkjoe March 05, 2010, 01:45:59 PM
Reign is the best RPG for organizational shit like war (or political intrigue, civil war, etc)

It scales from lowly street gangs to world shaking nations.

Each organization (company in the game's parlance) has its own stats like a character

Battles are fought as opposed rolls - but characters can influence the rolls with specific missions

sneak into the enemy camp and burn a few wagons of supplies - gives the enemy a penalty to their roll for hte next battle

Set up a clever plan to trap the enemy - big bonus on the next battle roll


In short, Reign is amazing and the best fantasy rpg to tackle shit like that
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: Tadanori Oyama March 05, 2010, 01:47:12 PM
I follow but you have to pick one to really bring out to the front. It's like the show mentioned with emphasis on other subjects: if you try to emphasis everything than you're actually emphasizing nothing. If your players are actually fighting the war as soldiers then they'll see the front lines, deal in small scale combat, and be able to see some of the effects of the war if they move from one conflict area to another.

If your players are directing the war from higher up then they won't be experiencing the war first hand in the same way, they'll deal in mass combat, and will be able to see the more complex issues beyond the front lines due to their more distant perspective.

You could make the players front line officers and try to blend the two. This is, in my opinion, extremely likely to overwhelm the players.


Well now I want to pick up Reign even more.
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: sarendt March 05, 2010, 01:51:12 PM
I can see what you mean about

if you try to emphasis everything than you're actually emphasizing nothing.

I guess I wanted to see the characters move between the higher up actions, to the lower ones.

I will expand this idea in a hour or so, gota do some actual work...

-Scott
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: Tadanori Oyama March 05, 2010, 02:10:15 PM
You can do both, I simply recommend not trying to do both at the same time. Having characters move between levels of a military is something would like to try.

You might have your players start as basic soldiers and then be promoted to officers in the field, then brought back from the front lines to advise the generals and political officials as to the "on the ground" situation, allowing you to bath players in blood and sweat at first before pulling them back so they can see what the war is doing indirectly. You may then have the players return to the front lines and resume small focus (buddies in the trench) or the players might remain back and take on a directing role.

The reverse would be starting the players high up in the command chain so they are directing people and then have them get busted down to trench level because they made a mistake or one of the higher offices decided to use them as an example, or whatever excuse you want to provide.
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: sarendt March 05, 2010, 03:19:26 PM
@Tad, you basicly expanded that for me, that was more or less what I was going to say.  My idea was more to let the players run standard adventures for 5-10 levels (assuming D&D, but whatever) at level 5 start hinting at the comming war, armies moving, quests to recon the enemy lines, towns reloacting etc.  

If the players seem interested, let them move towads an active role in the military war machine, taking missions for the crown or what not.  As the war commences, have them in a position of influence for the kings and generals etc.  Let them choose where to go and what to do, if they choose to return to the kings and generals they would have a chance to influence the war strategicly, or they could continue to run missions behind enemy lines or out side of communciation with the generals, taking more of a tactical approach.  Finally they might decide this whole war thing is for the birds and go find someplace safer to adventure until it winds it self down...

This approach requires quite a bit of work though, as you have to have some level of planning for each possiblity, thus the difficulty.  That doesn't even get into the 'feel' of the war, which would just be the GM's talent to bring this type of world alive...

-Scott

**modified to fix major spelling error
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: clockworkjoe March 05, 2010, 04:56:07 PM
well I remember reading somewhere that a common tactic in ancient warfare was for the generals of each army to seek out each other during a battle. The idea being that the quicker you kill the enemy general, the quicker the enemy army collapses.

Also, armies were led from the frontline most of the time. At the very least, you had to be on the battlefield to lead an army. So high level battles would be duels with opposing leaders or trying to kill as many troops as possible to demoralize the enemy.
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: Tadanori Oyama March 05, 2010, 05:09:02 PM
well I remember reading somewhere that a common tactic in ancient warfare was for the generals of each army to seek out each other during a battle. The idea being that the quicker you kill the enemy general, the quicker the enemy army collapses.

Also, armies were led from the frontline most of the time. At the very least, you had to be on the battlefield to lead an army. So high level battles would be duels with opposing leaders or trying to kill as many troops as possible to demoralize the enemy.

Are we talking about an ancient war? My time I've done a D&D war it's been much more of the modern spin on war since the players and NPCs can use magic to emulate modern methods of warfare.

I'd been operating under the idea that his players would be in the World War era of technology using guns and possibly motorized devices.
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: sarendt March 05, 2010, 05:37:08 PM
I'd been operating under the idea that his players would be in the World War era of technology using guns and possibly motorized devices.

Oh wow, I was thinking about ancient warfare, flavored with magik.  Most of my worlds are low magik with steam punk & clock work style modern contraptions thrown in. 

I would like to see this thread be a place for all types of warfare discussion, so I guess if people give examples lets just try to mention what era of game were set in.

Good call Tad!

-Scott
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: ristarr March 06, 2010, 09:12:37 AM
The group I am running now is in a war flavored campaign.  They are not going to be involved in much actual action on the front lines or as battle commanders ( I am not sure about that one as it could be a long way off ).  Now, I am using them to provide protection against insurgents in the port city that is the major point of supplies going out to the battle.  I sent them out to Crafthaven ( Ross's module Tides of Doom ) to investigate the diminishing supply of fireheart, which was being used by the war wizards at the front.  It seems to me this is a way to introduce more standard type dungeon crawling to the war effort.  Also, they have a lot of chances for urban investigation in trying to ferret out foreign agents.   They also have a story arc to stop some drug smuggling rings, operated by the enemy, that threaten to destabilize the populace.
In the future, I see them going behind the lines for missions, but it kinda depends on what they want to do.  Since the war is against an undead empire, I think they will want to continue the fight ( several Raven Queeners ) in an either official or unofficial capacity.
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: sarendt March 08, 2010, 01:37:18 PM
@ristarr:  I look forward to hearing how it turns out.  I like the idea of multiple paths you have created to tackle or solve the problems created by the war.

@Everyone:  What type of difference do you see in presenting a war from different era's?  Is it simply two options, ancient and modern, split around WWI technology or are their shades in there somewhere?  Has anyone seen a war played out in a future setting, such as Shadowrun or Starwars?

-Scott
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: Avoozel March 12, 2010, 11:05:47 PM
In short, Reign is amazing and the best fantasy rpg to tackle shit like that

So, when are we going to see a "Reign: New World" supplement?

I actually ordered  the hard cover from LuLu (http://www.lulu.com/product/hardcover/reign-%28detwiller-hardcover%29/1011887?productTrackingContext=center_search_results) and in the span of two weeks managed to get my group into the system and concept.   Then again, I had given them a little taste of ORE with Nemesis (http://www.nemesis-system.com/).  :D
: Re: War in table top RPG's?
: theoutsiders68 March 13, 2010, 06:58:33 AM
I am currently building a campaign on this very subject

theoutsiders68

On youtube check it out...