The Role Playing Public Radio Forums
General Category => RPGs => : clockworkjoe March 08, 2010, 03:40:24 PM
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I am shamelessly stealing this from the traditional games discussion forum over at Something Awful. They have a huge thread about the stupid shit nerds write about RPGs. Because as you know, rpgs are SERIOUS BUSINESS. (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3098558)
Anyway, you know how people looovveee 3E and hate 4E? Guess what, every new edition of D&D has been treated the exact same way. It happened with 3E. The exact same fucking flame wars about this for money and the new edition is the sux and so on.
Don't blame me? This is what John Wick (game designer - houses of the blooded and ORKWORLD among others) wrote about 3E
Hi guys. Been a while, eh? Yeah. I know. Trust me, I know.
I hear a few of you have been wondering where I've been?
You see the scars on my face? Smell the dust in my beard? See the ragged horse I rode in on?
I've been away, friends. Far, far away, on a magic journey that led me from the bleak, cold desert to a place where they serve nothing but milk and honey, breakfast, lunch and dinner.
I've tasted a moment of paradise, just enough to give me the strength to return here, and share with you the its sublime beauty.
I'm not sure if I have the skill to convey it all to you, but I'll try.
I'll try.
If you've been following this column for even a short while, you know that I love stories.
You know the people who love animals more than they love people? Well, that's stories and me. Some of my best friends are stories. More often than not, I've trusted stories more than I've trusted people.
And, one of these days, I'll have to take up Mona Hall on her offer, and write down the story she gave me, of a long forgotten fairytale who gets approached by The Mouse. "I can make them remember you again," The Mouse tells the long forgotten fairytale. "Just sign right here on the dotted line, and they'll never forget you again." I owe her for that one. Maybe one day, I'll find the words to tell it.
Another of my favorite stories is Percival, the tale of a simpleton who becomes a knight, who loses his innocence, then by finding it again, heals a wounded king. Those of you who have seen Terry Gilliam's The Fisher King (starring Robin Williams and Jeff Bridges) know the story.
It's a great story, one that continually finds its way back into my life, no matter how much I try to forget it. And it always amazes me how I don't recognize Percival, even when he walks right up to my face and shakes my hand.
He's never upset that I don't recognize him. In fact, it's happened so many times, he's come to expect it.
(I'm terrible at names and faces, by the way.
If I don't recognize you, please don't take it personally. I do my best, really I do.)
So, yes, I've been gone for months. Not a peep.
Where have I been?
My friends, I've been lost in the Wastelands.
And their acrid, dusty air made the sweet nectar of the Grail that much sweeter.
* * *
One of those stories that's been with me so long, I don't even remember where we met, is a little tale told to me by Stan Lee. Yes, you know it well. He's a friendly chap. A friendly neighborhood chap. Goes by the name of Spider-Man.
A wonderful lesson comes out of that story. Not a new lesson, but then again, there are few lessons in this world that don't have long, gray beards.
It's that "Great power, great responsibility" lesson we keep hearing about - the lesson we keep hearing about, and keep ignoring.
Why do I say that?
Have you taken a look around lately? Specifically, at the internet.
Just before I got lost (one of the key steps in the wrong direction), I lost my temper at somebody who decided to write a review of ORKWORLD. Instead of being a responsible adult, instead of pointing him toward the incredible review written in PYRAMID, I told the shmuck to blow himself. Not that he didn't deserve it, the whole thing was flame bait to begin with.
(Any review of any game that includes the sentence, "The rules are broken. I didn't actually play the game, but I skimmed through the rules, and I can tell" is flame bait.
But, hey, if you disagree with me, that's fine. Just go check out the review in PYRAMID. It's just, fair, and well written. Three qualities that the review at rpg.net doesn't have.)
But, frankly, I should have known better. But the whole thing was just another straw on that poor camel's back.
(Just how many straws does he have on his back these days?)
It didn't help that I made such a stink in this very column about Ken Hite getting the only review copy at Gen-Con, that I plugged his column, said a bunch of very nice things about him both here and at Gen-Con.
. and then found the review of my game ran almost exactly two paragraphs.
Three whole columns devoted to that D&D 3E game, and my book gets two whole paragraphs.
Of course, the review follows Gareth Skarka's Underworld paragraphs, and begins with the phrase "If you liked Underworld, you'll like Orkworld!"
In other words, Ken, my game and Gareth's game are pretty much the same thing. Oboy.
(And all of you who think I only bag on people who say negative things about my games, pay close attention here.)
Ken's review was almost entirely complimentary. Unfortunately, it fails as a review.
It tells you next to nothing about the game - other than the fact that if you like Underworld, you'll like Orkworld. Not that the two games have next to nothing in common.
Not that the people who didn't like Underworld will now pass on Orkworld.
Not that people who did like Underworld will buy Orkworld and get pissed off because it isn't like Underworld. Not that people who liked Orkworld will now go and try Underworld and get pissed that they aren't the same game.
Not that Ken Hite, the one and only person in the whole world who got a review copy wrote exactly less than one hundred and fifty words about my game and three whole columns about that poorly laid out, poorly illustrated, poorly designed, two-hundred and eighty page RULEBOOK they called DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS THIRD EDITION.
Let me tell you something about that book, all right?
When's the last time you bought an RPG that was nothing but two hundred and eighty pages of RULES?
You know when?
Nineteen eighty-five. That's when.
Because that's the last time an RPG could get away with being two hundred and eighty pages of rules.
IF D&D3E ANY OTHER NAME ON IT AT ALL IT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE JOKE OF GEN-CON.
IT'S A TWO HUNDRED AND EIGHTY PAGE RULEBOOK!!!
No, check that. I'm entirely wrong. I'm ranting so hard about this that I completely forgot something. It's not just a two hundred and eighty page book of rules.
BECAUSE THE STUPID THING COMES IN THREE VOLUMES!!!
THAT MAKES IT AN EIGHT HUNDRED PAGE RULE BOOK!!!
ALL YOU SUCKERS WHO BOUGHT ALL THREE BOOKS PAID FOR EIGHT HUNDRED PAGES OF RULES!!!
Did you even look at the thing?
I mean, the PLAYER'S HANDBOOK has black and white art in it.
With all the art resources Wizards has, they can't afford to fill that book with FULL COLVER ART???
Wizards has dozens of artists on staff, ready and willing to paint full-color pictures for D&D 3E, and instead, the art director has them drawing black and white pictures for a book that's FULL COLOR.
And the quality of art. I mean, the fellow who did all that painting is very nice, but he ain't no Terese Neilson. He ain't no Rebecca Guay. He ain't no Bill O'Connor. He ain't no Drew Str.
Drew Str. oh hell, the guy who did the cover of the Star Wars RPG. Yeah, that guy. And, ladies and gentlemen, he is a far way away from being Tom Denmark. This is WotC's premier product.
There is no excuse not to have the best damn artists you have painting this book.
Instead, they settled for someone who is simply above standard. Very, very good artist. A talented fellow who has a very lucrative career ahead of him. All my best to him and I hope he finds all the best success in the world.
But, he's still no Micheal Whalen. Or Brom. Or the guys they have over at LucasArts doing concept sketches for Episode II. Some of the best artists in the world are doing concept sketches for Hollywood. Why not hire them?
You're gonna sell 350,000 copies of this book, why not spend a little extra money to make it LOOK NICE???
And then there was the layout. Who the hell did they hire to do the layout on that book? It looks like they scanned a piece of loose-leaf notebook paper, dyed the lines in Photoshop and dropped it in the background.
It's like they said, "Hey! I've got an idea! The typeface is already crunched and difficult to read, why not drop in a bunch of lines that are the same color as the type and make it MORE DIFFICULT TO READ! How's that sound?"
Idiots.
Ryan Dancey fooled you all. Every single last one of you. You all sucked on the big tap of Fool-Me-Three-Times and Ryan Dancey danced all the way to the bank.
And what do you have?
You have three two hundred and eighty page rulebooks. Eight hundred pages of rules. Congratulations.
And all I hear about on the internet is how innovative that game is.
You know, I can't tell you how innovative that game is BECAUSE I CAN'T READ IT! MY EYES START BLEEDING ON PAGE FOUR!!!
But the whole internet is singing the praises of this game. Ken Hite is doing it - even though the book Tom and I put together gets about a hundred and fifty words - rpg.net is doing it, the whole stinkin' world is doing it.
And you know what that says to me? It says, "Screw you, John Wick. Screw you and your screwed up notions of what gamers want. Yeah, you wrote the L5R RPG and won every single industry award for it and made it one of the best-selling RPGs of all time. Yeah, you wrote the storyline for L5R, and all those kids who carry banners on their back during Gen-Con, all those kids who make the L5R tournament LARGER THAN THE MAGIC TOURNAMENT AND THE POKEMON TOURNAMENT COMBINED, who make Ryan Dancey a whole @!#$-load of money, who -
I'm getting ahead of myself.
I'm tipping my hand. I'll have to slow down here for a moment. Let the rant run out. Get back in control of myself.
There we go.
. count to ten.
. stop and take a breath.
. there we go.
Wanna know where I've been for the last two weeks?
That's where I've been.
The Wasteland.
Just try writing anything with that going through your head. Go on. I dare you.
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I know what you're thinking.
Sour grapes? Heh. You don't know the half of it.
You are absolutely right. I'll admit it right up front. Absolutely truthful. Ain't no way to get around it.
But that's what's in my head. I'll be honest about it. I'll tell you the whole, ugly, naked truth: I HATE D&D Third Edition.
Why?
The same reason I hate STAR TREK: Because the best-selling RPG on the market isn't the best RPG on the market. It's just the one with the best name recognition.
However, let's get something else out in the open: D&D3 is a good game. I'll say it again: D&D3 is a good game.
And three times, just to make sure. D&D3 is a GOOD GAME
Is it the best game? No. It isn't. I don't think anyone will dispute that.
The layout makes the book difficult to read.
I understand there was a lot of information to cram into two hundred and eighty pages, but they could have chosen a friendlier font and they could have chosen not to put lines between the lines to make the job of reading it even harder.
It already has 50 pages of errata.
It doesn't have THE BEST artists in our industry between those covers. The art is wonderful, but it isn't THE BEST. And when you have the budget, you go for nothing but THE BEST.
The logo is indistinct and difficult to read.
The cover has rhinestones pasted onto it.
It's difficult to read.
It isn't organized very well.
It's difficult to read.
(Tell me something, would you? What alignment is Darth Vader? Chaotic Evil, you say? Well, that makes sense. He is evil; he kills people. But is he Chaotic? He wants to bring order to the galaxy. He loves his son. Shows signs of regret bringing him before his Emperor. Maybe he's Neutral Evil, then. Right? Hm. Or maybe - just maybe - he's Lawful Good. Don't believe me? Check it out. Vader's actions are all but selfless. He's serving the needs of the Empire. He is unconcerned with personal power or gain. He follows a strict code [I don't think anyone can argue the Dark Side of the Force isn't strict on its followers] and [once again] wants to bring order to the galaxy. That sounds like Lawful Good to me. Sure, he has to kill a few people to maintain that order, but when's the last time a Paladin got chastised for killing a few orks, eh? And those rebel scum. Trying to topple the status quo. That sounds a bit chaotic to me. And do you think they evacuated the Death Star just moments before Luke blew it to pieces? How many people did Luke Skywalker murder when he blew the first Death Star up?
And, as Kevin Smith reminds us, the second Death Star wasn't quite complete just yet. That means there were people working away on it when Biggs and Lando blew it to pieces. Innoncent bystanders. All dead. Lawful Good rebels fighting for freedom, right? Wrong. Fighting to restore power to the aristocracy. Or, am I mistaken when I remember that both heroines bore some royalty in their nomenclature? The Rebel Alliance, fighting for truth, justice and restoring a couple of pretty princesses back to power. Yeah.
That's what Lawful Good is all about. And don't forget to kill some orks on your way out. They're worth 50 XPs a piece.)
It still has Character Classes.
(Let me ask you a question. In my years of professional service to the human race, I spent three years as a camp counselor for pre-teens with emotional and family problems, two years as a pin jockey in a bowling alley, another three years as a camp counselor, a few weeks as a singing waiter, a few years as a professional storyteller and singer in a sea shanty group, taught storytelling for three years, two years as assistant manager at Wal-Mart, delivered pizzas, was in a punk band, a blues band and a rock 'n' roll band, worked late night grocery and maintenance and produce at Cub Foods in my home state of Minnesota, worked a year on the Union Pacific Railroad as a switchman and breakman, worked security, served as an office assistant for a foster family agency, looked after developmentally disabled adults, worked as a janitor, tried my hand as staff writer and [part-time] assistant editor at a games magazine, wrote over 1,000,000 words of game fiction, source material and rules and even worked sixteen hours at McDonalds. What character class do I fit into?
(What's that? Three dimensional characters with backgrounds and past careers and such don't fit into character classes? Well, what kind of characters fit into character classes? Be careful with your answer; you may not like it.)
(And for those of you who think you're clever by calling me a "bard," please don't. There are real people walking around with that honor. They go to a school in Wales - St. David's, I think its called - and they memorize long passages of stories and family histories to earn that title. I have not.
(Here. Three quick examples. A couple of friends asked me if I wanted to play in a D&D game. I said, "Sure. Why not. Let's see how it plays." So, here are the two characters I wanted to make.
(First, I wanted a young noble who, at the age of ten, found he had sorcerous abilities. This, of course, meant he was a sorcerer. His father, the king, was elated, but his wise men notified him there was only one way his son could be a sorcerer: if his mother slept with a dragon. That meant my character was a bastard, cast out and ostrasiced by his family and friends. He still has his sorcery, and he's looking for his true father. And when he's strong enough, he's gonna come home and he's gonna free his mother [locked up in the tower], and defeat his tyrant father. Sound like a fun character to play? Well, you can't. There are no rules for royal characters. I wanted contacts and money and other noble stuff.
I can employ in any other rpg on the market but neither the PH or the DMG have rules for playing noble characters. I have to play something else.
(So, I decided to play a bard. A young man who goes to bard school, but his heart is more in wooing women than learning old songs that nobody sings anymore. "Where's the charm person spell?" he asks. They ignore him and teach him a seventeen hour story about people nobody's ever heard of. He steals a couple of songbooks, runs away from the school and becomes a rogue. Well, guess what? I can't play that character, either.
Spuh. That was it. If I can't even make the character I want to play, two characters that are entirely legitimate and within the boundries of standard generic fantasy, then I just won't play. I mean, I can make those characters in GURPS, why can't I make them in D&D?
(Why? I'll tell you why with one word: character classes. Stupid, idiotic, restrictive for the purpose of being restrictive character classes.)
The fact of the matter is, that game has sold enormously well. Has it deserved its sales? That's not for me to say.
However, and this is important here, pay close attention:
I DO THINK THAT ANY GAME THAT BEGINS WITH THE SENTENCE, "WELCOME TO THE GAME THAT HAS DEFINED THE FANTASTIC IMAGINATION FOR TWENTY-FIVE YEARS" DESERVES NOTHING LESS THAN A .357 HOLLOW-TIP BULLET STRAIGHT THROUGH THE SPINE.
As if no other game in twenty-five years has contributed anything to the industry.
Every innovation that's in those books, and The Wick means EVERY INNOVATION is from another game.
There is nothing new in the PG. Absolutely nothing. You can go through, point-by-point, and find every "new rule" in another game.
Not bad for a game that has "defined the creative imagination" for the last 25 years.
It's a presumptuous statement that goes right up there on the top of my list, right next to Sen-Zar's "We had to make this game."
We've mocked the guys who wrote Sen-Zar. Mercilessly. But then, when D&D pulls the same @!#$, we ignore it, and sing its praises high unto the rafters, agreeing like the mindless, slack-jawed pod-people we are.
Well, not me. I calls 'em as I sees 'em. D&D3 is not the holy grail. It is not manna from heaven. It is not the perfect, end all be all game. It is just as wacky and flawed and screwy as it's always been, and always will be.
And, frankly, its still about as much fun.
No question about it: D&D is a helluva lot of fun.
But it isn't brilliant game design. It's still the same game it was when it was the butt of every gamer cliché we know. It's still the clunky, old-school, simple-minded, hack 'n' slash game it's always been.
Just like when the Academy Awards brought out Jane Fonda, welcoming her back to the fold after her two-decade long lunacy period of being married to that strange fellow who owns Atlanta, expecting all of us to be fooled.
Well, I wasn't fooled. Not by Jane (she'll always be Barbarella to me) and not by D&D (she'll always be Barbarella to me, too.)
It's still D&D, folks. The game you were mocking two years ago. The game you complained about two years ago. The game you fought over two years ago. The game you refused to play ever again two years ago.
It's still D&D.
It's okay to like it. It's even okay to love it. I'm not about pissing in people's punch.
But I am about calling a spade a spade, and that game is the damned Ace. Hell, it's the whole damned Royal Flush of Spades.
Don't call it anything other than what it is. It's Dee and Effin' Dee.
It don't matter how many numbers they put behind it. It will always have those stupid alignments that never made sense, it will always have character classes that keep you from making the character you really want to make, it will always reward murder and genocide with profit and power (XPs), and it will always be clunky, awkward and unbalanced.
(Not that I have any interest in "balanced" games but there are folks out there who complain that games I design aren't "balanced" but go on to sing the praises of D&D3. Listen here, buddy. Tell me about it the next time I see your fighter and he's using a longsword instead of a rapier. Wanna know why? Because a longsword does a d8 worth of damage and the rapier only does a d6.
"Aha!" you say. "But the rapier does more damage on a critical hit!" To which, I answer: "So what? Your rapier does a crit on an 18 - 20 and my longsword does a crit on 19 or 20. That means you crit 15% of the time. I crit 10% of the time. And, in the meantime, 100% of the time, I've got a better chance of doing more damage while having an only 5% less chance of getting a crit. Nice game balance there. And don't ever ask me to handle a light axe. D4 that crits 5% of the time. Why in the world would I ever waste my time with a light axe???
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(But I digress.)
Yes, this has been my Wasteland. Watching the internet sing the praises of D&D3, claiming it the savior-messiah of gaming.
Folks, it wasn't all that good. It wasn't bad. But, it just wasn't all that good, either. At least, not from my point of view.
And it's funny.
I was at the Berkeley show a few weeks ago, listening to everyone talk about it. The Hero guys told me, "Yeah. It's dressed up Hero." I heard the Chaosium guys say, "Yeah. It's just dressed up BRPS." I even heard someone say, "They just stole a bunch of ideas from Rolemaster."
Funny. No one said they stole anything from L5R or 7th Sea.
(Maybe that's because there's nothing worth stealing from them? One never can tell.)
Its kinda like when every racial group in the world claimed the trade federation aliens in Episode One sounded like them. I heard Native Americans say it, I heard Chinese say it, I heard Japanese say it.
Funny. No one said they sounded Irish.
(Maybe that's because nobody wants to sound Irish? One never can tell.)
The fact of the matter is, D&D3 looks like a lot of different RPGs. There's just nothing new or innovative about it.
I mean, think about the games that have come out lately. Think about the way Unknown Armies handles magic (pornomancy all the way, baby!), the way Feng Shui handles combat (I have to admit, brutes - I mean, mooks are a wonderful idea)
the way Hero Wars handles myth (do I have to say anything here?), the way Orkworld handles hunting -
. sorry . - and the way Conspiracy X handles psychic powers (and if you haven't seen this one, you are missing something).
And think of some older games, and the innovations they made. Cthulhu. Chill. Traveller. Over the Edge. The World of Darkness. GURPS. Hero. Rolemaster. All of these games provided essential building blocks the designers up at WotC used to create the new D&D.
And, let's face it, there is nothing new in those books. Nothing.
The Saving Throw system (your traits give you bonuses) comes right out of Runequest.
Skills are not a new thing. Not even the way they handled skills (making each one a separate ability) is a new thing. I mean, come on. It wasn't even new when 7th Sea did it. Go check out TMNT (and other Palladium books) to see what I mean.
The magic system is still the same old clunky, non-linear, non-sensical magic system. Although, I have to admit, this is one place I felt the game really fell flat. I mean, I miss all those funky names for the spells. Now they read like chemical formulae.
The bonuses thing is cute, but again, nothing new. It's straight out of Pendragon. Identical in nearly every way. Nothing new.
And did I mention they didn't do anything about alignment. Orks - sorry - "orcs" are still chaotic evil.
Chaotic evil and tribal. I'd like to see how that works. A culture of sociopaths sounds a bit oxymoronic to me.
And did I mention half the art is black and white? In a color book, half the art is black and white.
In case you missed that, let me say it again.
IN A FULL COLOR BOOK, NEARLY HALF THE ART IS BLACK AND WHITE.
That's not just bad art direction. That's a waste of money.
So, to recap:
1. D&D3 is a hardbound, full-color book with at least half of its full color pages covered with black and white illustrations.
2. It's mechanics, while improving previous editions, are not innovative, fresh or new; simply patchworks from previous innovations.
3. It is poorly laid out and requires a total of 3 books (a total purchase of sixty dollars) to play.
4. It is a rulebook comprised completely of rules.
Something unseen in this industry for nearly a decade.
My conclusion?
If D&D3 is a rules set for generic fantasy roleplaying. And, like every other generic fantasy game that has released in the last ten years, it should financially fail. However, this is not any other generic fantasy game.
This is Dungeons and Dragons. And because of that, it will succeed.
Despite the fact it is nothing more than eight hundred pages of rules and not a single paragraph of world.
Despite the fact the rules are not well organized or explained.
Despite the fact the combat rules require the use of miniatures.
Despite the fact gamers have been complaining about this kind of book for the last ten years.
Despite this fact, because it was Dungeons and Dragons, this game will sell almost 350,000 copies by the end of the year while Orkworld will probably sell about 3,000.
Sour grapes?
You bet your sweet dowmga.
* * *
I promised you we'd get out of the Wastelands.
But before we did, I wanted you to get a look at where my mind's been the last two weeks. And, to be honest, there's one more step into the Wastelands before we can take our first step out. Just one more. I promise.
I need to tell you one small fact about Ryan Dancey.
See, I know Ryan. And Ryan knows me. It ain't no secret we haven't always seen eye to eye.
I won't get into that here. That's private stuff between me and Ryan.
But, I will tell you a quick story about me and Tom Denmark that involves Ryan in a weird kind of way.
It goes something like this.
Me and Tom and Morgan Gray (more on him later) are sitting outside a coffee shop. I'm eating a turkey sandwich with cranberry sauce. Never had it before, it's pretty neat.
They're smoking. Had that before, it ain't neat.
(Something The Wife said to me just the other day. "If I was married to a smoker," she says, "I'd pour a capful of Drano into my food. Just a cap a day. And I'd eat it right in front of my smoking husband. He'd say, "What the hell are you doing?" and I'd say, "I'm killing myself. Very slowly. And you're gonna watch." She's just amazing. Okay. Back to the story.)
"We should do it," Tom says.
"We should do it," Morgan says.
"You two are crazy," John says.
They're trying to convince me to do something I promised myself - and others - I would not do.
And that, my friends, is write an adventure using the d20 System.
"It's like when CCGs first took off," Tom says. And he's right.
"We've got to get on there quick, before we're just another adventure," Morgan says. And he's right.
"I can't," I say. And I'm right.
See, I know Ryan.
Worked with him for five years. And there's a proud little part of me that doesn't buy into all this d20 hype. I won't. It's a fad. Besides, I won't write something for d20, even if it is for a quick buck, because that'll prove that Ryan was right.
I'll be just like everyone else jumping on the bandwagon.
Everyone else so eager to prove that Ryan Dancey was right about the game industry: sooner or later, everything will be d20 whether game designers like it or not.
The fans will demand it. Game companies have to either make d20 products or go out of business.
The more d20 products there are out there, the harder it will be for anything else to make a mark in the market.
And, if I jump on the bandwagon, Wick Fanboys (hi guys!) will shout "Sell Out!" and throw eggs at my house.
Besides. I already made Ryan Dancey plenty of money. When they sold Five Rings Publishing to Wizards of the Coast, there were a bunch of people who saw a whole lot of money.
No-one on the design team was on that list of people. Not me, not Dave Williams, not D.J. Trindle, not Rob Vaux, not Matt Wilson, not Matt Staroscik.
Not one of us. Not one red cent.
"I've already made Ryan Dancey a lot of money," I tell them. "I'm not interested in making him more."
That's when Tom Denmark looks me in the eye with a smile on his face and he tells me:
"Then it's time you let Ryan Dancey make you a lot of money."
And, my friends, that was only the second time in recorded history John Wick couldn't think of anything to say.
To top it off, Morgan says this:
"Besides, the book we'll do will kick the @!#$ out of anything they're gonna do."
Then, he goes on to tell me that Ryan said D&D fans will hold the Player's Handbook up to the rest of the industry and say, "The bar just got raised." He smiles.
"Let's do a book the D&D players hold up to Ryan and say
'The bar just got raised.'"
I won't count that as the third time. It was just an amendment on the second time.
So, there I am. Sitting there. Thunderstruck. Dumbfounded. Flabbergasted. Discombobulated.
. So, what do I say?
"All right," I say. "Let's steal Ryan's customers."
Ryan once said that he intended to use the PLAYER'S HANDBOOK as a weapon against the rest of the industry.
He said he'd print a full-color, hardbound two-hundred plus page book for only twenty bucks, and the fans would hold that book up to the rest of the industry and say, "Why can't you make something this good?"
Well, friends and neighbors, I have seen D&D3, and I can tell you this:
I'm doing a d20 Adventure.
I've seen the best WotC can do.
It was s***.
I'm gonna blow their socks off.
And they'll hold that book up at the steps of Wizards Central and shout at the top of their lungs: "Why can't you make something this good?"
I've taken my first step out of the Wasteland.
Thanks to a guy named Percival, hiding in the skins and clothes of Tom Denmark and Morgan Gray. They showed me something I'd forgotten:
Gaming is about fun. Providing a tool for others to have fun.
I'm back. Back in the saddle, ready to finish what I started
Namely, ready to finish Warhamster for John Kovalic, ready to finish The Book of Villains for Green Knight, and ready to finish The Flux for myself.
And a few other things as well. More on them later.
Take good care of yourselves. Don't get lost in that Wasteland.
It's a nasty place. And the only guy who knows how to get out is a funny lookin' pair of fellas living in the Bay Area.
And I owe them much.
(PS: I will update Orkworld.com this week with a few goodies. And, next week, I'll show you what's up with Warhamster. Boy. It's been a long road. See you on the other side.)
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Mr. Wick seems a little up his own ass there.
I like going to the library, working my way back into the stacks, and pulling out Dragon Magazine Issues from the 90s and 00s, especially the issues leading up to the "big change over" to 3rd Edition. Really helps with the change in mind set of certain individuals for people like me who didn't join the hobby until 2004.
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hey lets read about John Wick's GMing style in a superhero game
http://gamingoutpost.com/article/hit_em_where_it_hurts/
One of my favorite things about being a Game Master is watching players bring me their characters for the first time just before we begin to play. The sheets are clean and white, waiting for the pizza stains and other scars that they will acquire over the months and years of play. I carefully peek over the sheets as the player watches, anxiously biting their lip, because they know exactly what I’m looking for.
You see, I have a bit of a reputation.
I kill characters.
A lot of characters.
Even in my Champions campaign, those big whopping 250 point monsters don’t stand a chance. But I don’t kill characters with muscle-bound monstrosities or lonely, brooding cigar chomping maniacs with razor sharp claws. No, I kill characters in a very different manner all together.
I hit them where it really hurts: where they spend their points.
This article is designed to show Game Masters how to use a character’s Disadvantages, Powers and Resources against him. The examples listed here were used in my Champions campaign, but with a little creativity, a GM can use these ideas in just about any game. Now before we begin, let me introduce you to an old friend of mine.
Meet Jefferson Carter
“I’ve read dozens of books about heroes and crooks
And I learned much from both of their styles”
- Jimmy Buffett
Jefferson Carter is an NPC I use in a lot of my campaigns. As the head of Carter Enterprises, he is a model millionaire. He donates millions of dollars to charities, opens homeless shelters, fights for the rights of the working class and is always seen with the beautiful people. He is a handsome face with a charitable, giving heart.
Carter Enterprises is also responsible for the founding of United Superheroes (or, “US”). Using his vast funds, Carter brings together the most enterprising and resourceful superheroes to fight crime in the city’s streets and root out corruption in the city’s government. His involvement with US has always been a public matter: he doesn’t believe that a good deed should ever remain anonymous. He defends the rights of super heroes to help support the police department and other law enforcement agencies. He was instrumental in passing “The Vigilante Act” a few years back that made the acts of super heroes legal and has a staff of the best lawyers in the nation on payroll to keep his employees out of jail and on the streets.
In short, Jefferson Carter is the best friend a superhero could have.
And with friends like him … well, I think you finish that one by yourself.
Carter’s Secret
Hold your allies close to you,
but hold your enemies closer.
- The Tao of Shinsei
Jefferson Carter is a meta-human. Carter has many abilities that allow him to seek out a hero’s most precious secrets, then he uses those secrets against them.
In my Champions campaign, even if the heroes weren’t employed by US, Carter would still consider them “employees.” In fact, those heroes would be an even greater challenge to his intellect and resources.
Why has Carter gone to all this trouble?
The answer is simple.
Because he can.
Carter is a mastermind, a genius beyond mortal measurement. Ever since his childhood, he has played “human chess” with his teachers and playmates. His acquired fortune came about from his ability to manipulate the minds and lives of mortals, and now he has learned to manipulate the minds and lives of meta-mortals.
In short, he is causing pain, misery and conflict for his own enjoyment. And, don’t forget, he’s doing it for his employees. After all, he provided for the Vigilante Act. He provided United Superheroes. He equips and trains the supervillains they encounter. Carter is the reason they are living the life they are. And if his tricks and traps take out one or two heroes here and there … oh well. What is life without a little risk, eh?
The Method
Now down to the nitty gritty.
Carter looks for a hero’s greatest weakness and exploits it until the character breaks. Listed below some of the more popular Disadvantages Champions characters take. Under each one is a method I used (Carter used) to get at the character.
Just a friendly warning: some of these techniques may be considered by some GM’s to be “underhanded.” For those GM’s who feel that they should be fair and arbitrary (as I so often hear), I suggest they look up “fair” and “arbitrary” in the dictionary.
Then, we can talk.
DNPC
For those of you who don’t recognize DNPC, it stands for “Dependent Non-Player Character”. I understand it’s a fairly common Disadvantage among players, but after this little stunt, I had a severe shortage of DNPCs in my campaign.
One of my more resourceful heroes was a young lady named Malice. She was a martial artist who had a poison touch. She was fast, deadly and very lucky. She was also a big, fat thorn in Carter’s side. She was getting too close to his secret, so he decided to retire her.
When she wasn’t running around in black tights, Malice was taking care of her aging grandmother. Grandmama was not too fond of those costumed heroes, especially that Malice girl. She looked like a hussy in that tight little costume. And what right did they have to do a police man’s job? Grandpa was a police man, after all (and the main inspiration for Malice to turn to a life of adventuring). In short, it would break Grandmama’s heart if she found out about her granddaughter’s secret.
By now, you should be getting the picture. Just show Grandmama pictures of her granddaughter getting into the Malice costume and everything will be hunky dory, right?
Wrong.
When Carter does things, he does them with style.
On Grandmama’s seventieth birthday, Malice took her out to her favorite restaurant. In the middle of the meal, one of Malice’s most hated enemies showed up on the roof with a bomb. Of course, Malice made an appearance. Her enemy (who knew she would show up) was prepared. He had a single agenda and he stuck to it. In the middle of the fight, he hit her with a paralyzing ray, ripped off her mask and threw her through the glass ceiling – right in front of Grandmama. The combined shock of seeing her granddaughter get thrown through the glass ceiling, fall fifty feet and slam to the floor was shocking enough. Add to it the realization that her granddaughter was that masked hussy was a bit too much for Grandmama to handle.
Her heart seized, and as Malice watched on, trapped in her paralyzed body, her grandmother died.
Malice retired the very next day and nobody ever bought a DNPC again.
Berserk
I love this one. Whenever I get to take a character away from a player for a while, explain that they’ve been unconscious and then have them wake up with blood on their hands is a chance to have some real fun.
I had one of those berserking scrapper guys in my campaign for a short while. His name was Scrapper (I didn’t pick the name, guys) and he got hired on at US for only a short while. The player knew all the Champions loop-holes and he exploited every one. Instead of asking “What kind of idiot do you think I am?” I let him have his little combat monster, keeping a steady eye on his Berserk Disadvantage.
After a couple of sessions, I got complaints from players. They complained that the character was nothing but a walking bundle of powers, a glory-hound and a bad role-player. I agreed, but asked them to be patient. After seeing a familiar wicked glint in my eye, they smiled quietly to themselves and waited for the hammer to fall.
The next session, they encountered one of my favorite villains. His name is Mindbender, and you can figure out the rest. Mindbender took one look at Scrapper and he knew what to do. He invoked a little mental heavy artillery and before Scrapper knew it, I was rolling dice, making a regretful look and asking him to make his Berserk roll. Now Scrapper only goes Berserk when he sees red trolley cars (his mother was killed by a run-away red trolley car). He knew there were no trolley cars in Minneapolis and asked me why he was going Berserk. I told him he was seeing trolley cars wherever he looked and he had no choice but to make the roll – and make it at -5, at that. After all, he was surrounded by the bloody things.
He failed the roll, went nuts and I took away his character sheet. At that moment, Scrapper starting attacking everything in sight, including his buddies. They had no chance but to defend themselves against a little rule-bending combat monster who was going at them full tilt. His little rampage caused a whole lot of damage and took out a small child’s eye before they got him under control. The parents sued US, Scrapper was brought up on charges of negligence and reckless endangerment of life and spent the next twenty years in prison.
I suggested to Scrapper’s player that he should be more careful with his Disadvantages. Surprisingly enough, the next character he made was a little more respectful of the rules. Go figure.
Psychological Limitations
Some of the most powerful Disadvantages are “Psy Lims.” Codes of Conduct are always fun to play with. One of our heroes, a guy named Tristan Thomas who went by the name of “Paladin,” had a pair of interesting Limitations. He would not strike a woman, no matter what the circumstances, and he was a firm believer in The Law. He would not tolerate any infringement of the law, not in himself and not in others. Of course, this provided me with a whole bunker of ammo to use against him.
The first thing I did was have him fall in love with a pretty little librarian Angie Isolde. That should have been enough of a clue for him, but unfortunately (for him), he didn’t pick up on it. You see, Angie was a “renegade super” named Vengeance. She had no license to practice and often found herself at odds with US. Neither of them knew their Secret Identities, and Paladin was beginning to develop a nice, healthy hatred for Vengeance. She had picked up on his “don’t strike women” code (thanks to Mr. Carter’s agents) and would somehow always know where Paladin was. She would chose the day and date of her attacks carefully, embarrassing him at every opportunity.
As the rivalry between Vengeance and Paladin heated up, so did the romance between Angie and Thomas. When the time was right, Carter arranged for a subtle drug to get slipped into Paladin’s system that would drive him to the edge just at the right moment. He met up with Vengeance (right on schedule) and as she prepared for another opportunity to humiliate him, the drug kicked in and he started in on the unprepared super-babe. Needless to say, under his drugged state, he demolished the poor girl (he had 50 more points to play with, after all). When he gained control, he realized what he had done and watched as the police (who were conveniently called in on the scene by an anonymous tip) took off her mask and carted his beloved off to prison.
Luck
“Okay,” you say. “That’s just fine taking advantage of a character’s disadvantages. That’s no new trick. So what?”
All right, how about using a character’s advantages against him?
“Talents” can be a Champions character’s worst enemy. Luck is a great example. Players buy Luck for their characters all the time. Its like a little security blanket. It makes them feel as if they have something to fall back on if everything goes bad.
The definition of Luck is “… that quality which helps events turn out in the character’s favor.” Okay, that sounds fine, but trust me, a good GM can find bad in just about anything.
Remember, Luck isn’t contagious. Making a character Lucky does not make the whole group Lucky. Characters who buy Luck tend to be a little self-centered. After all, they would rather spend points on something that will get them out of trouble, rather than something that would compliment or aid the group. So, get the group in trouble, let the Luckster roll his way out of it, then make him wish he didn’t. It’s called “the frying pan and fire technique” and here’s how it works.
Imagine the group getting hit by some area effect weapon. Of course, the Luckster wants to roll his way out of it. You tell him that’s fine and he makes his luck roll. He flies out of the effect and looks back to see his buddies frying.
(Feel free to apply guilt here. After all, he could have grabbed someone to fly out with him, right?)
Then, right after he’s out of the blast radius, have him notice that he’s flown right into a mob of supervillains, just ready and willing to pound on one lone hero. Let’s see him Luck his way out of a combined total of 1,500 points of hard-hitting villains. If only he had stayed behind …
Or perhaps by Lucking out he’s put his buddies in deeper trouble. For instance, let’s use the area effect weapon again. Perhaps one of his powers could have countered the effect? If he had stayed behind, he’d have been able to help them out. But he chose to Luck out, and now his buddies are frying. Good thing he’s Lucky, isn’t it?
Another example. The character is in an airport. He’s in the rest room and he stumbles across an envelope somebody dropped. He opens the envelope and discovers its filled with thousand dollar bills. Get you get any more lucky? Of course, the money belongs to a crime syndicate or something even more diabolical, and they’re going to be looking for that money and who “found” it (of course, they believe the hero stole it). And all of this trouble because the character was Lucky.
Immunity
Immunity gives a character supernatural immunity to diseases and poisons. It’s a very popular advantage. Of course, Mr. Carter had to do something about that.
I had his scientists come up with a disease that would kill off anyone with the “super gene” that meta-humans had. Carter had a cure, of course. The only problem was all those super fellows who bought Immunity were, well, immune to it.
Find Weakness
My favorite trick has to do with Find Weakness. This little puppy lets characters observe their enemies to find a weakness in the defenses of a target. The better they roll, the more damage they can do.
A lot of combat monsters take this one. I always let them. They only use it once.
Carter designs supervillains with a weakness the heroes can exploit. These villains he calls his “throw-aways”: punks he can throw at the heroes to watch their fighting styles and skills. He shows the heroes films of the throw-aways and shows them the weakness he’s “found.” Then he sends them out to confront the baddie, armed with the knowledge he’s given them. They find the throw-away, engage him, find his weakness and hit him as hard as they can.
This little strategy always has the same result.
The villain’s eyes go wide, he mumbles something about forgiveness and the hero watches the life slip out of his eyes.
Killing a villain is a major crime. Heroes are expected to bring the bad guys in alive. But there’s no need to worry. The hero can rest assured that Mr. Carter’s lawyers will take care of everything.
The Retirement of Mr. Fabulous
One last story that I can’t take full credit for.
One of my players, my buddy Danny, came to me after a game session with a problem. He had been playing a character for the whole run of the game, a very popular character who went by the name “Mr. Fabulous.”
Out of all my Champions campaigns, Mr. Fabulous was one of my favorite characters. He was a modest little superhero with just a little bit of super strength, speed and endurance and a whole lot of heart. He dressed up in a colorful costume and fought for truth, justice and the American Way because it was the right thing to do. He always took a morning jog along Hennipen Boulevard and a mob of kids would follow him as far as they could. He bought ice cream and hot dogs at the little mom and pop drug store on the corner for lunch and he always had time for an autograph.
Oh, and he fought crime, too.
That night, Danny told me that Mr. Fabulous was going to retire. He really loved the character, but he felt it was time to let him take off his mask and get on with his imminent middle age years. We talked about it for a while and I gave him a suggestion. At first he was shocked, but then, as he thought about it, he agreed it was the only way to end the story of Mr. Fabulous. We shook hands and the very next week, the event we discussed took place.
Mr. Fabulous did indeed announce his intention to retire. Carter and US throw a huge party to celebrate Mr. Fabulous’ twenty years of fighting crime. The event was on the front page of every newspaper in the nation.
On the morning before his retirement, Mr. Fabulous stopped in the mom and pop drug store for his ice cream and hot dog. A young kid with frightened eyes was there with a gun, taking money out of the register. Mr. Fabulous held up his hands and tried to talk the kid into putting the gun down. The kid, with eyes full of tears, lowered the pistol. For some reason, Mr. Fabulous’ Danger Sense wouldn’t stop ringing in his ears. He turned around a little too late and took a bullet from the kid’s older brother right in the face.
The ambulance arrived ten minutes after the incident. Mr. Fabulous was found, barely alive and in shock. They turned off the siren five minutes outside of the hospital.
The death of Mr. Fabulous was a dark day in my campaign. He was one of the first super heroes, a mentor to more than half of the members of United Superheroes. A national day of mourning was held and we spent an entire game session on the funeral, listening to each superhero talking about their memories of their hero.
What did this accomplish? What does this little incident have to do with using a character’s Disadvantages against them? Well, every character has one single disadvantage in common, and it isn’t on their character sheet. Sometimes we don’t see it, and it often becomes invisible in a superhero campaign. That little Disadvantage is that each and every one of us is mortal. In the world of superheroes, we sometimes forget this. While each of us would like to live forever, it is often a character’s death that defines him, not his life. Mr. Fabulous died trying to talk a scared little kid out of doing the wrong thing. He could have pounded the hell out of him, but he didn’t. He died trying to stop a crime without using his fists.
What was Mr. Fabulous’ Disadvantage? He had a Code vs. Killing. Carter found out about it and set up the whole incident. But this time, his little gambit backfired on him. He thought killing Mr. Fabulous in a simple robbery would dishearten the superheroes of Minneapolis. He was wrong. It brought them together, creating a bond that could not be broken. And he was sloppy. One of the heroes began digging and found out the kids were paid to commit the crime. It was the beginning of the end for Mr. Carter.
But that’s another story.
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Wow this guy is a dick. And he puts alot of thought into being a dick.
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Sounds like a fun time, Ross.
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Oh...
malyss
I am worth 100 points in GURPS ladies
***
Posts: 127
And can I get this modified to include a comma so that it doesn't appear as though I am from the "Ladies" edition of GURPS?
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Oh...
malyss
I am worth 100 points in GURPS ladies
***
Posts: 127
And can I get this modified to include a comma so that it doesn't appear as though I am from the "Ladies" edition of GURPS?
If by comma you mean apostrophe, then maybe.
Until then, GRAMMAR FAIL.
(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn119/Setherick/F.jpg?t=1268086605)
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Oh...
malyss
I am worth 100 points in GURPS ladies
***
Posts: 127
And can I get this modified to include a comma so that it doesn't appear as though I am from the "Ladies" edition of GURPS?
If by comma you mean apostrophe, then maybe.
Until then, GRAMMAR FAIL.
Would an apostrophe confirm that he is from the female edition?
IE: " GURPS Ladies' "
I believe he wants a seperater to indication that his title is, in fact, addressing ladies.
IE " GURPS, ladies."
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Oh...
malyss
I am worth 100 points in GURPS ladies
***
Posts: 127
And can I get this modified to include a comma so that it doesn't appear as though I am from the "Ladies" edition of GURPS?
If by comma you mean apostrophe, then maybe.
Until then, GRAMMAR FAIL.
Would an apostrophe confirm that he is from the female edition?
IE: " GURPS Ladies' "
I believe he wasn'ts a seperater to indication that his title is, in fact, addressing ladies.
IE " GURPS, ladies."
Hmmm....a semantic dilemma that only Ross can solve since he came up with the stupid title (http://bigassmessage.com/79beb0144) in the first place.
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Wick is a terrible GM (if not a terrible person).
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Wick is a terrible GM (if not a terrible person).
I am impressed with the amount of thought he puts into things. This Carter guy seems like he makes a good villain except Wick seems to be playing him like a GMPC.
Alot of these things start out as good ideas. Use the Disadvantages to farther the story, cool. But the grandmother having a heart attack? That seems meanspirited. Well, his whole attitude is mean spirited. He sounds like he derives great joy from causing the characters pain and seems to take personal insult.
What really broke it for me was his little part on the Lucky advantage. Out of the frying pan and into the frier? What the fuck, man? 'Fry the whole group then pummel the one guy who got away, that'll show him to take Lucky' (I paraphrase).
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Carter is a mastermind, a genius beyond mortal measurement. Ever since his childhood, he has played “human chess” with his teachers and playmates. His acquired fortune came about from his ability to manipulate the minds and lives of mortals, and now he has learned to manipulate the minds and lives of meta-mortals.
In short, he is causing pain, misery and conflict for his own enjoyment. And, don’t forget, he’s doing it for his employees. After all, he provided for the Vigilante Act. He provided United Superheroes. He equips and trains the supervillains they encounter. Carter is the reason they are living the life they are. And if his tricks and traps take out one or two heroes here and there … oh well. What is life without a little risk, eh?
Would you really use that as a major villain as is? I don't know about you, but I'd give him some major flaw or some sort of justification as to why he's doing the things he's doing. Evil for the sake of evil is good for kid's shows or cartoons. And he's not even cut for a more cartoonish game has he lacks an flaw or eccentricity.
Malice retired the very next day and nobody ever bought a DNPC again.
Gee. Where I come from, we try to encourage our players to have an actual social life. The whole "hometown burned to the ground and now you're an orphan" approach is frowned upon by all of my gaming groups.
-His little rampage caused a whole lot of damage and took out a small child’s eye before they got him under control.
Stay classy, wick.
and took a bullet from the kid’s older brother right in the face.
I hope his family can hire good morticians to arrange his face. I've got no quarrel with PCs dying tragically. This might've been tragic if he wasn't one in the long list of PC deaths he caused. Also, retirement is so rare these days for any PC, why can't they live a semi-normal life afterwards?
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I'm not intending to defend Wick in any way shape or form, I'll just say that.
I found the story about Paladin to be particularly unpleasant and frankly confusing. A "subtle" drug that causes the PC to gain 50 points and lose control of their character forcing them to violate two of their major life tenants? Not cool.
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The definition of Luck is “… that quality which helps events turn out in the character’s favor.” Okay, that sounds fine, but trust me, a good GM can find bad in just about anything.
I thought RPGS were supposed to be fun and the GM should encourage the players to enjoy their time.
Man, fuck this guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63lYBalGx7M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63lYBalGx7M)
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I'm not the antithesis of this guy, bad things have to happen to characters to keep the story dramatic. But to make it a point to ensure that every character in the game is a miserable ball of depression - how does he keep finding players? I mean, I can understand he's got one or two long-time sycophants who get off on power-by-proxy watching him crush new players' hopes and dreams, but you would think word would get around in his local community.
There's a guy up here who plays D&D as a competition sport, it's him vs. the players - and if he loses, he just makes himself win without bothering to roll any dice. "Nope, sorry, he made it through the escape hatch."
Apparently, after a particularly brutal campaign involving phantom wards that weren't there a moment ago when they checked for them, villains that got back up more often than WWE wrestlers, and, I shit you not, a quest macguffin that was cursed, the players had had enough. At one point, they were fighting the Big Bad in a cavern and he started to slip out a convenient back door, leaving the party to his minions. The fighter of the group said, "I can't catch him ... BUT ... I can get close enough that if you hit me with your fireball I'll survive but the blast will get him too."
The fighter ran as close as he could, mage hit him with a fireball, the explosion engulfed the villain too for enough damage to kill him. The GM said, "Nope, you can't target party members." Final ruling.
Shortly after that, they all quit.
Now nobody in town wants to game with him.
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I agree that his GM style leaves something to be desired. The idea of teaching the PCs a lesson does not seem like acting in an adult manner. To quote from his anti-DnD diatribe: "It's that "Great power, great responsibility" lesson we keep hearing about - the lesson we keep hearing about, and keep ignoring." And he is one that keeps ignoring it also. He sounds power mad and irresponsible. I am picturing his campaign having two types of players: his favorites who create and run their characters "the right way" so they don't need to be punished, the other group being those that have not learned to play properly and receive tips in the form of fatalities to their PCs. I guess there is a third group also, the smart ones who don't play in his game.
I find the DnD rant a good bit off base also. He keeps mentioning about how DnD stole this and that from games that came before it. If he would take a little longer look at the history books, he would see all the games he mentioned built upon the foundation of DnD. He doesn't complain about them. His hatred for all things DnD is continued in Houses of the Blooded. One of his two main design concepts was for it to be "The Anti-DnD"
"But I did so as a reaction to D&D. I didn’t want to
re-design that game, but design a new game that was a kind of response to it.
Almost everything that’s true about D&D is untrue in this game."
Almost everything except this mentioned in the paragraph above this last quote:
"you play the role of a character in
an ongoing story. You define your character with traits listed
on a character sheet. Together with your friends, you sit down
with other players and make your characters together, relying
on each other to assist in that process. This game calls those
characters player characters because they are characters
controlled by the players."
That is anti-DnD alright. I wonder why he did not credit Gygax and Arneson for that.
Sorry about the rant, but I really hate pretentious assholes.
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I know you're not defending the guy, Tad. Brought in this light, there's no way he could come out as an "okay kind of guy". Maybe he is in aspects of his life that don't concerns roleplaying games, maybe he just lost too many SAN to Wizards of the Coasts cultist to be able to GM properly. Who knows?
Per his youtube channel, he doesn't seem too insane, although humble isn't one of his trait: http://www.youtube.com/user/LordStrange
Anyway, this isn't the "JohnWickisaDick.txt" It's about GROGNARDS!
The fighter ran as close as he could, mage hit him with a fireball, the explosion engulfed the villain too for enough damage to kill him. The GM said, "Nope, you can't target party members." Final ruling.
It happened more than once a GM would try to pull a trick on us while I was a players, I changed my approach. When a GM is about to house-rule something or break consistency in his own setting I usually give him a warning to make him realize what he's doing. It's usually something about the line of "Do you really want to take this victory away from us when it was legitimate and smart thinking on the player's part, simply so that you don't go too off script? Instead of having players talk about this game as "the time they screwed over this guy", have the player talk about another "fucking railroad scenario" or "this guy's horrible DMPC"?
I'm trying not to be a dick about it, but it actually worked, every time I put it in this light, the GM let us keep our virtual victories. It doesn't matter if the scenario is 2 hour shorter (if the GM can't improvise further), we managed to solve the initial problem. This is what happen when one GM had us fall through a trap door right in front of the main bad guy, he finally let us roll to avoid falling. One PC managed and he brought down the main bad guy that we were suppose to fight last down with us. He had to replace his final encounter but it turned out as a really good game.
Anyway, the other alternative is to let the GM be a dick and have the game, if not the campaign turn to shit
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This stuff was written when he was still with his first wife. Kinda gives you a hint of where his mind was at.
From Play Dirty, a reprinted compendium of his Pyramid column, as well as that first Gaming Outpost article:
While preparing for this book, I re-read the episodes, looking where
I might be able to tighten up the text, but after reviewing the first
episode, I decided against it. This book stands as a testimony to whom I
was that year. I like to think I’m a better writer these days (note the use
of “hope”), but being honest about my past has recently become very
important to me for reasons I’ll outline at a different time.
The John who wrote these episodes comes across to me more like a
younger brother than a younger version of myself. I can sympathize
with his anger, his joy, and his hope, but he seems like a different
person. The most important difference is the marital status. Younger,
angrier John is married; older, wiser John is not. And Jennifer is doing
just fine, by the way. We just had lunch last week and I got to rub her
tummy. She’s re-married and got all preggers. I joked, “John’s a great
name.” She promised she’d think about it. “Maybe a middle name,” she
told me. When we said goodbye, we both had a touch of sadness in our
eyes. We always do. Happiness eclipses it, but there’s no getting away
from the past. And it’s important to be honest about that.
But meeting her made me also think about these episodes. I went back
over my own files, re-read the words, laughed and winced. There was
more laughing than wincing. And hence, this little volume.
I'm not trying to defend him, I'm just saying he's very aware of the asshole he was.
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Oh...
malyss
I am worth 100 points in GURPS ladies
***
Posts: 127
And can I get this modified to include a comma so that it doesn't appear as though I am from the "Ladies" edition of GURPS?
If by comma you mean apostrophe, then maybe.
Until then, GRAMMAR FAIL.
Would an apostrophe confirm that he is from the female edition?
IE: " GURPS Ladies' "
I believe he wants a seperater to indication that his title is, in fact, addressing ladies.
IE " GURPS, ladies."
Tad = Pass
Seth = Fail
"GURPS' Ladies" would indicate that the ladies belong to GURPS.
"GURPS Ladies'" would indicate the I belong to GURPS Ladies. What exactly a "GURPS lady" is, I have no idea...
Until then, I leave you with a quote.
"Me fail English? That's unpossible."
I'm sure a few of you recognize that quote.
And Seth... put the red marker away; you'll hurt yourself.
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malyss
I am worth 100 points in GURPS...ladies
***
Posts: 137
Hehehe. Just had to come up with something different eh, Ross?
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only way I could figure out to represent this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMfHnNu1oq4 in a written form
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Does the term "Too Much Fucking Free Time" mean anything to anyone here?
How do you guys even find this stuff... it's like an Oddness Detector or something. I bet if you were walking through a crowd, you would end up stopping by the guy with two different socks who is standing next to the woman breastfeeding her poodle and you would all have the same birthday...
Funny statistical thing...
http://betterexplained.com/articles/understanding-the-birthday-paradox/
Damnit! You are sucking me into your black hole of strange! The closer one gets to this site, the more likely strange crap will happen. The strangeness around here is so dense it bends light.
Can't stop posting though...
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u mad
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No, just a little perturbed.
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Does the term "Too Much Fucking Free Time" mean anything to anyone here?
It's the interwebs. Yous can finds whatevers yous wants. Ss.
If you go looking for odd than your likely to find it. And odd is, often enough, bloody hilarious.
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No, just a little perturbed.
(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/5070/1152288728883.jpg)
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See, Ross IS plugged directly into the internet. Watch, he'll respond with some weird picture post.
BLARG
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(http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/3862/marioweeg.png)
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(http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/3862/marioweeg.png)
Corey Haim's final moments.
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Corey Haim's final moments.
Too soon...
This seems like a classic 'mistake' where someone has gone from being a GM and players to a GM vs. the players. Though I guess that has nothing to do with the original post.
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you guys should start looking for more grognards.txt material
i.e. terrible posts about tabletop rpgs
so we can laugh at them and stuff
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So, on these other boards I post on, specifically The Spoony Experiment boards, I'm one of the only supporters of 4E among a bunch of 3.5 fans and other various old-schoolers. Generally, our rare discussions on the topic of 4E are reasonably civil, they honestly have good arguments most of the time, and I'd like to think at least that mine are good as well, and generally everyone goes away agreeing that the system has flaws, and it's mostly a matter of opinion..
However, there's this one fellow there who seems to have an irrational HATRED for 4th edition, so much so that I'm half-convinced the PHB2 killed his father on the side of an old country road one night. I have picked what is probably his worst post on the topic for your entertainment, wherein he argues that MONOPOLY IS A BETTER RPG THAN 4E.
A lot of the people that say you 'can' roleplay in 4E despite the system don't realise that the people that prefer Pathfinder/3.5/AD&D aren't saying that the game doesn't allow you to.
In fact, "When your room looks kind of weird, and you wish that you weren't there, just close your eyes and make believe, and you can be anywhere"; I can roleplay during any activity. I can be folding socks and roleplay. I can name the socks, give them identities and all that sort of things.
The thing they're saying is that, 3.5/Pathfinder/AD&D were more capable of allowing you, both as Player Characters and Non-Player-Characters have stats and skills and feats and classes that represented a larger variety of character concepts.
I know, we all know that you 'can' say that you're anything you want. I can say that I'm a grizzled old retried war veteran that comes back to adventuring to try one last time to find the lost macguffin that had eluded him in his youth, to train a new batch of adventurers so they don't make the same mistakes he did at their age. Nothing will fucking stop me from saying that. I can say that my character is that and not even have a character sheet. I can say that my left sock I'm folding is that character.
The problem though is that there is a disconnect in 4E D&D between what you say and what you are, on the character sheet. Either you play the characters Wizards of the Coast built for you, or your character and his sheet have nothing in common, and it creates a disconnect, that makes the game feel tacked on for no reason.
4E D&D then feels like a jRPG, where you walk around and can talk to people or do things, but then combat comes out, the screen shakes a few times and you're in an entirely new game where your old retired veteran has a high Str score because that's needed to make an effective Warlord, or either that, or he suddenly decides that, just for battle, he's a Bard, because Bard's powers use Charisma.
3.5/Pathfinder/AD&D though, it's a lot easier to make sure that what's on your character sheet syncs up a shitload better than with what your concept is, without sacrificing total usefulness in the game.
Oh, I'm sure I 'could' create a Warlord with an 8 Str, but the game and balance will have to crawl to a standstill as it scratches its head at my retarded fucking character statistics.
Because every stat is more important, there is often a lot more use for stats that don't go straight into your combat powers in 3.5/Pathfinder/AD&D. You don't just cherry pick 2 stats for combat usefulness and powers, dump on everything else except maybe a third for a Defense, and then roleplay an entirely different character than your sheet suggests you have.
Another problem 4E has is that it tries to shoehorn in fixes edgewise with feats, so to get a few of those concepts you need, you have to sacrifice utlity to try to mash in a feat that allows you to be what you wanted, which would had been a lot easier in a different game.
Non-Player-Characters are much, much worse than Player Characters in this regard. The entire game falls apart entirely if you imagine the world as a dynamic place that moves while the players aren't watching it.
Whole armies of high level and experienced minions die instantly in a sandstorm, the economy is a clusterfuck that's balanced entirely on game mechanics and attempts in no way to try to make sense, environmental penalties and rules make it so entire civilizations in less than pleasant sunny climates will wither away the moment the player characters set eyes on it.
The game falls apart thematically and sensibly unless you assume everything is a static mobile for the players to kill and loot, tucked away in an ethereal void or quantum probability cloud until within Spot/Listen check proximity of the Player Characters in which case they coalese in media res in a state that would fall apart if the Players were inclined to actively watch the state for more than a few weeks.
Not to mention lazy powers, skill checks, items and abilities that only work in metagame terms and make no sense when you even barely attempt to examine them from the point of view of a character in universe.
Ressurection that costs about as much as a small wardrobe of barely nice clothing with no other penalty than an hour of time and a small penalty for a handful of rolls, and yet people still even die in the fucking world from anything other than old age, skill challenges that are frightening impossible for simple checks and ironically easy for shit that should be difficult to do.
The game just outright can not stand up to any amount of in-universe scrutiny, and that's why, if you don't play the characters the game wants you to, you have to just make shit up.
Feats and Magic Items entirely indivorsable from the setting (and its lazy AdjectiveNoun naming system) and the default character builds (and tell me how easy it is to play a striker class that uses the 'wrong' type of armor or a leader with the 'wrong' alignment or 'type' of weapon by the default core books).
Core concepts to the genre that are split between 200 books so that the only way to attempt to customize your guy is to wait for a 'patch' to come out and add something you might want.
And you're right, nothing does 'stop' you from just saying you're whatever the fuck you want to say you are. I can't contest that. But we might as well have Monopoly out, and any time I want to do something, see if I land on Park Place. Sure it won't make any sense to what I want to do in-universe compared to what I want to do in-game, but neither would 4E.
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His problem along with most 4e haters, world of warcraft kidnapped his rpg group and raped his friends and now he is forced to play the basterd spawn called 4e.
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I didn't find a lot of his arguments that bad, but I think the level of game he is looking for isn't covered as well by the "standard" 4e format. In general, I don't find 4e is made for the "gritty" settings he seems to prefer. In 4e, you are heroes. Not zeros. If you are playing an aging veteran, he was the kind of guy who was awarded the Victoria Cross, or Medal of Honor. Twice. He wasn't the guy who just made it through on the tails of those around him. I remind my players of that often - that just because I describe a NPC as "bad ass," it doesn't mean he is better than they are - they are special - they are the heroes of the story. They can do stuff normal people can't. 4e isn't about playing the simple farmer who actually has no ability.
You can make the character in a variety of ways and have them be less than ideal, mechanically, but you can "nerf" a character in most systems if you wanted to.
I find his arguments are like a lot of peoples' views on the various games; you can support any argument with a specific enough scenario.
And how the hell does he know which sock is the "left" one?
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you guys should start looking for more grognards.txt material
i.e. terrible posts about tabletop rpgs
so we can laugh at them and stuff
I'm not good enough at forum diving to find asshole, apparently. All the discussions I'm finding seem reasonable and mannerly.
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Clearly Tad has never been to the world of warcraft forums. There its hard to open a thread and not find 3 assholes!
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Clearly Tad has never been to the world of warcraft forums. There its hard to open a thread and not find 3 assholes!
Well you guys make this look easy. I thought if I just pop opened RPG.net's forums I'd have my pick of the nut jobs but so far so luck.
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What the hell? John Wick isn't nearly as bad of a guy as those tidbits make him sound. I mean yeah, he hates on D&D as much as the other grognards, but his recent GM advice book is actually full of good stuff. He had some good ideas to share at the panel he did with Robin Laws at GenCon 2009, too. So I guess I'm defending him here.
That said, when I went to the panel, I wanted Robin to punch him the balls for hating on 4E without even having played it (Robin called him out on his blog for it).
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I didn't find a lot of his arguments that bad, but I think the level of game he is looking for isn't covered as well by the "standard" 4e format. In general, I don't find 4e is made for the "gritty" settings he seems to prefer. In 4e, you are heroes. Not zeros. If you are playing an aging veteran, he was the kind of guy who was awarded the Victoria Cross, or Medal of Honor. Twice. He wasn't the guy who just made it through on the tails of those around him. I remind my players of that often - that just because I describe a NPC as "bad ass," it doesn't mean he is better than they are - they are special - they are the heroes of the story. They can do stuff normal people can't. 4e isn't about playing the simple farmer who actually has no ability.
You can make the character in a variety of ways and have them be less than ideal, mechanically, but you can "nerf" a character in most systems if you wanted to.
I find his arguments are like a lot of peoples' views on the various games; you can support any argument with a specific enough scenario.
And how the hell does he know which sock is the "left" one?
How does 3E get 'I'm a weakling who can barely get out of bed yet I adventure for some reason' any better? I remember people making THE EXACT argument against 3E because ALL character classes raise their Base Attack Bonus as they level up - some guy on rpg.net hated it because he wanted to play a scholar who never made a melee attack in his life.
It's an inane argument for the fact that I never see people talking about how great their gimped PC is. Do you ever see anyone writing about 'oh man I made this fighter with flashbacks, a bad back and ulcers - he is so deep and awesome to roleplay as' or do you always see people "oh I made this badass fighter/samurai/barbarian/prestige class X guy who can do 80 damage on a charge?"
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How does 3E get 'I'm a weakling who can barely get out of bed yet I adventure for some reason' any better? I remember people making THE EXACT argument against 3E because ALL character classes raise their Base Attack Bonus as they level up - some guy on rpg.net hated it because he wanted to play a scholar who never made a melee attack in his life.
It's an inane argument for the fact that I never see people talking about how great their gimped PC is. Do you ever see anyone writing about 'oh man I made this fighter with flashbacks, a bad back and ulcers - he is so deep and awesome to roleplay as' or do you always see people "oh I made this badass fighter/samurai/barbarian/prestige class X guy who can do 80 damage on a charge?"
Maybe I'm not reading it right, but in 3E there is variable base attack bonus increases whereas in 4E it is essentially 1/2 level plus main stat plus X item bonus. That makes the default capabilities of the various classes more comparable (c'mon - you have been saying how balanced it is, and this is a perfect example of that balance).
If someone argued that his scholar shouldn't have any improvement on base attack because he never throws a punch, he should be reminded that base attack is also used for touch attacks (melee and ranged) and it is assumed (at least by me) that after years of adventuring, whether you throw a punch or not, you would have a better understanding of the dangers around and how to react to them.
I personally have seen rewarding play from both types of characters. Sure, the min/max player will always prefer to play Conan over some weakling, but that doesn't preclude others from playing their characters however they want.
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I see his point about 4E, but he should really be saying 'D&D' instead of singling out 4th edition here. D&D has always worked on a class system that essentially forces your character into 'packages'. It's true that 4E does this a little bit more than 3E. But if you want your characters to be 100% custom based on your concept, there are far better systems for it than 3E/pathfinder/ad&d, and they're usually a bit more gritty to boot. Burning Wheel for example definitely fits this bill.
But if your goal is to play a game about heroics and getting into fights 8 times a day, D&D is where it's at.
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There's still some BAB advancement in 3E - the worst progression eventually gets +10 BAB by level 20. But the point was the guy bitched about how his immersion was RUINED because he HAD to improve his BAB.
But my main point stands - 3E is no better at building a gimped/disadvantaged PC than 4E and it's stupid to even argue that a system is bad because it doesn't let you build a gimped PC in the first place - D&D has never been about that and if you want that either house rule it or play GURPS.
Criticizing 4E on this basis is incredibly fucking stupid.
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I don't understand how the base attack bonus improvement mechanics affect the way you roleplay your character.
If you build a scholarly guy who has never swung a weapon in his life, why are you likely to do so in the course of a game? Nobody's making you whack that kobold in the beans, buddy.
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I don't understand how the base attack bonus improvement mechanics affect the way you roleplay your character.
If you build a scholarly guy who has never swung a weapon in his life, why are you likely to do so in the course of a game? Nobody's making you whack that kobold in the beans, buddy.
I wish I could find the thread but this guy was just enraged about how D&D 3E was killing his roleplaying because of the BAB. He just went on and on about this old scholar guy who never practiced any kind of melee fighting YET could swing a staff better than a lower level fighter.
Thats the funniest thing about the anti-4E crowd. Most of their arguments apply to 3E as well
ITS A VIDEO GAME: When 3E came out people compared it to Diablo especially feat trees etc. 3E grognards call 4E a WoW clone.
IT RUINS ROLEPLAYING: 2E AD&D players hated 3E skills and feats for forcing characters into rigid roles and shit. Also they hated that demihumans could take any class. 3E grognards hate skill challenges and the limited set of skills in 4E.
IT RUINS MY GYGAXIAN NATURALISM: The Challenge Ratings stuff in 3E was hated by people who loved random encounter tables just as 4E people hate how 4E have multiple versions of the same monster for different levels
and on and on
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One of my google quotes for the day applies here:
A conservative is a man who believes that nothing should be done for the first time.
- Alfred E. Wiggam
All we need to do is change it a little:
A grognard is a gamer who believes that nothing should be done for the first time.
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Non-Player-Characters are much, much worse than Player Characters in this regard. The entire game falls apart entirely if you imagine the world as a dynamic place that moves while the players aren't watching it.
Whole armies of high level and experienced minions die instantly in a sandstorm, the economy is a clusterfuck that's balanced entirely on game mechanics and attempts in no way to try to make sense, environmental penalties and rules make it so entire civilizations in less than pleasant sunny climates will wither away the moment the player characters set eyes on it.
The game falls apart thematically and sensibly unless you assume everything is a static mobile for the players to kill and loot, tucked away in an ethereal void or quantum probability cloud until within Spot/Listen check proximity of the Player Characters in which case they coalese in media res in a state that would fall apart if the Players were inclined to actively watch the state for more than a few weeks.
I think this is interesting, I don't think he understand the mechanics are there to facilitate the combat, not be the end-all arbiter of the fantasy universe. I'm always amazed when I see DM go through the trouble of statting-out their characters as a player-characters. There's nothing wrong with that, but I find it pointless.
Whether he's a peasant, lord or merchant, he doesn't need stats unless he intends to be directly oppose the players in their lust for blood and money. Even then, if it's not direct combat, just make his Insight stat as you go or something.
Oh, as far as the economic system paragraph... Welcome to D&D buddy, where the monsters possess the majority of the riches in the world.
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no edition of D&D has had a believable economic system
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I personally think that all this 3E 4E bullshit is what makes d&d dead to me. I just don't really enjoy normal d&d games anymore.
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You never hear these complaints about CoC rule books, or Synnibarr!
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There's still some BAB advancement in 3E - the worst progression eventually gets +10 BAB by level 20. But the point was the guy bitched about how his immersion was RUINED because he HAD to improve his BAB.
The guy is a moron then. If that actually ruins your game, go play solitaire.
But my main point stands - 3E is no better at building a gimped/disadvantaged PC than 4E and it's stupid to even argue that a system is bad because it doesn't let you build a gimped PC in the first place - D&D has never been about that and if you want that either house rule it or play GURPS.
Criticizing 4E on this basis is incredibly fucking stupid.
For many classes, simply stats-wise, it can be harder to build a gimped character in 3E than in 4E. A 3E fighter with a low strength is still effective based solely on their BAB increase. A 4E fighter with low strength is at larger disadvantage against an equal level opponent. And 4E lets you retrain as part of the rules - there is no provision in the rules for a 3E character that made a poor choice.
All systems have points of criticism, but it is all situational and at the end of the day, it is still just a game. If you aren't having fun, play something else. It's like these people are mad at the game because they don't like to play it. It would be like eating a Snickers, when you had the chance to choose a Coffee Crisp, and then bitching about how a Snickers wasn't a Coffee Crisp. Whose fault is it that you chose something you don't like?
It seems like these people play D&D, but what they really want to be playing is GURPS... but they still play D&D when there is an alternative that they can easily choose.
The discussions we have had on balance and other issues are at least related to the game we basically prefer to play, and we are talking about tweaking things, not playing completely different games. I mean, I'm not upset with D&D because it doesn't let me play a giant fucking robot... and someone who is, has bigger problems than their game choice.
They remind me of people who went to see Godzilla, and then complained that all the movie was about what a giant lizard stepping on a city...
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I can't stand Grognards, but 4e sucks because it's a video game..... okay I'm kidding.
I've played everything but the original white boxed set, and tons of other games besides. For fun, well, you can have fun with any game system if you are having a good time with your friends. I played lots of 1st edition AD&D and we laways used piles of house rules to get around the junk in there, but we had fun. Played some 2nd edition, and it was fun to, but not such a huge improvement. Played some 3rd and really liked the updates. Liked the changes made to 3.5. Very annoyed about the re-purchase thing though. Currently running 3.5 and enjoying it despite issues. Playing 4E, refuse to buy it based on cost/need thing. Eventually I got the PHB and MM 60% off at a book-store closing though :-) 4E is fun to play. Great teamwork things going on, and easier to teach a new player I bet. Still, feels mecahnically different in some ways, but hey, who cares.
Edition wars are silly. You can argue about mechanical supperiority but in the end, any game can be fun, no matter how stupid it is. Marvel Super Heros comes to mind.