The Role Playing Public Radio Forums
General Category => Role Playing Public Radio Podcast => : buddy March 17, 2013, 05:27:54 PM
-
was referred here by Ross & Co.
My question was how to handle "seeing the Future" by PCs. What's the more elegant expression?
as it stands now, I can give the hero mental clues about what's to come. Related NPC actions, mostly.
My issue was knowing PC actions. I can't. I don't know exactly where the game is going so - how do we see it?
How do you make the ability, a powerful one, useful to the extent that the PC gains an advantage - one that doesn't smash the game to bits?
Considered asking the player a question, but that question could overturn the game. Thought to create a vision of some probable future action that gave the players impetus, but that action might not happen, based on player decision. Thought about giving the player control of future gameplay ("this happens now"), but that declaration would require a complementary game that had a place for an action that would be nothing more than a guess. Limiting the vision to an NPC action would be workable, but it shifts focus to an NPC over the PCs, which is problematic.
How would or do you handle Precognition in a game? I'm currently running Mutants & Masterminds Third Edition, which allows the power. And I'm finding it an ugly thing I'd rather ignore.
Help. Any advice the Forum can offer would be considered Good.
"A child is born that usurps the king's wickedness!"
explain that ..............
-
The major thing to think about when providing players with insights into the future is to never give the whole game away and instead give them aspects of the plot or events almost like you're letting them look at one bullet point of your session notes.
If the big bad guy is encountered in a nuclear power plant, have the vision be a flash of a Radiation Hazard sign. If his plan is to make the Power plant melt down then give the player a vision of the surrounding area bleak and devoid of life.
Precognition is one of those things that can easily break the game and should be handled with care and restraint. It also matters what your concept of fate is within the game. Can predicted events be avoided? If not, how will the party manage to save the day? etc.
Simply put, The PC's are really the unknowable factor here and should represent as this when it comes to the visions. It could be that the visions are actually insights into other realities. For example, the vision of one of the heroes kicking down a door to a warehouse and being blown away by a trap or peppered to death by the waiting goons with automatic rifles still establishes the fact that there is a bomb or the bad guys are expecting an attack and are ready with overwhelming force.
How powerful are the visions in your game and more importantly what does the player with this power feel it should do?
-
I have a large personal dislike of Precognition powers so keep that bias in mind as I answer.
For most games I tend to run improve heavy games and seeing the future isn't too difficult to deal with in those. You give the player an image or a concept, even a short scene, which is (at the time) totally meaningless and use it like you would a suggestion in an improve show.
When I'm not doing improv I tend to give people vague answers, the sort of thing I imagine would be visible to someone from a distant perspective of events. Often I an intentionally obtuse in the answers I give people, in an effort to discourage them from taking such powers.
I recommend asking the player why they want the power. If they want to emulate a specific character from a media than try to do that since the media will already have some kind of method to deal with the ability. If they want to as a short cut to plot, then disallow the ability.
-
Of course the media has a way to deal with the ability. It's called a writer. The character can't see the future and then choose to shoot himself in the face or move to China or whatever to keep it from happening. Bottom line is, if a character wants precog abilities, he'll have to accept some railroading to make sure those abilities actually work.
-
The major thing to think about when providing players with insights into the future is to never give the whole game away and instead give them aspects of the plot or events almost like you're letting them look at one bullet point of your session notes.
If the big bad guy is encountered in a nuclear power plant, have the vision be a flash of a Radiation Hazard sign. If his plan is to make the Power plant melt down then give the player a vision of the surrounding area bleak and devoid of life.
But that "aftermath" scene doesn't happen if the players prevent the meltdown .........
Precognition is one of those things that can easily break the game and should be handled with care and restraint. It also matters what your concept of fate is within the game. Can predicted events be avoided? If not, how will the party manage to save the day? etc.
Simply put, The PC's are really the unknowable factor here and should represent as this when it comes to the visions. It could be that the visions are actually insights into other realities. For example, the vision of one of the heroes kicking down a door to a warehouse and being blown away by a trap or peppered to death by the waiting goons with automatic rifles still establishes the fact that there is a bomb or the bad guys are expecting an attack and are ready with overwhelming force.
How powerful are the visions in your game and more importantly what does the player with this power feel it should do?
Good question, in regard to "how powerful/accurate" the visions. I have no clue. I want the ability to be effective for the hero, but not "game-breaking". Thus, I thought to make the visions focus on NPCs around the central event - "side-tracks" that depict bystanders & bad guys doing things AROUND the key event, without actually revealing what's to come completely.
My question is: would this be enough to make the power effective? I don't want to short-change the hero at the expense of a crisis.
Thanks for your advice, Woob - but I need further guidance.
-
I have a large personal dislike of Precognition powers so keep that bias in mind as I answer.
For most games I tend to run improve heavy games and seeing the future isn't too difficult to deal with in those. You give the player an image or a concept, even a short scene, which is (at the time) totally meaningless and use it like you would a suggestion in an improve show.
When I'm not doing improv I tend to give people vague answers, the sort of thing I imagine would be visible to someone from a distant perspective of events. Often I an intentionally obtuse in the answers I give people, in an effort to discourage them from taking such powers.
I recommend asking the player why they want the power. If they want to emulate a specific character from a media than try to do that since the media will already have some kind of method to deal with the ability. If they want to as a short cut to plot, then disallow the ability.
Thanks, Tadanori.
"Vague" was my 1st option.
Example;
Plot: the Sentinels are reactivated & attack all "threats" (any superhero or supervillain)
Sub-Plot: The Sentinels track mutant activity & media reports of "superhuman" action, in order to capture/kill their targets
sub-Plot: The Kingpin of Crime (Wilson Fisk) & Emma Frost are behind the Sentinels (Frost tries to verbally-convert powerful supers to her thinking of a "more-ordered world")
Sub-Plot: analysis of captured Sentinel tech reveals 2 names - an engineer & a Pentagon supervisor (both names are anagrams for Fisk & Frost), with both real men being dead & buried (the caskets hold the bodies of slain superheroes replaced by android drones serving the criminal masterminds)
Sub-Plot: several superhumans are held in suspended-animation aboard a satellite HQ formerly belonging to a hero team, but now redesigned & occupied by the Sentinels
Sub-Plot: the PCs aren't the last resistance - there is a team of supers on the Moon's Blue Area, a large team of street-level heroes bounding around the U.S., and a scattered team of international supers - the greater resistance has a plan, based on flawed Sentinel propaganda, to strike at the enemy (deathtrap)
Sub-Plot: the most powerful supers (Franklin Richards, Silver Surfer, Jean Grey, ect.) have been taken to another dimension by Franklin to avoid "the worst-case scenario" (a powerful super destroys most of human civilization to defeat the Sentinel army) - the issue here is Franklin keeps taps on everything the PCs do & can end up "Deus Ex Machina" (as Franklin can be)
sub-Plot: the Sentinels have dimensional-hopping tech that allows them to target & assault any supers-base they find across dimensions - Asgard, Olympus, the Astral Plane, ect. - nowhere is safe from the Sentinels' adaptive weaponry onslaught
so. you can use Precognition to reveal aspect of this kind of game (this is most of my Sub-Plots), but, what aspects of the above scenario would you feel safe revealing without giving up your whole game? Keep in mind it's future events, not past.
The whole thing, based on how I craft NPC Sub-Plots, made my head hurt. Again - HELP. "Vague", for all intents & purposes, needs a clearer definition here.
-
Of course the media has a way to deal with the ability. It's called a writer. The character can't see the future and then choose to shoot himself in the face or move to China or whatever to keep it from happening. Bottom line is, if a character wants precog abilities, he'll have to accept some railroading to make sure those abilities actually work.
I was near here. Rail-roading. But, it's so ugly. Plus, you need the GROUP to accept the method. I can't force one player down the road & ignore the others. They would sense the motion & rebel. I know this because I've had it happen in a game. Thinking "I can add this scene & make it happen" led to one player thinking "No. That scene wont happen - I'll do whatever to prevent it. I wont be Rail-Roaded."
This is my problem. Players & Precognition. How does one move the group forward along the lines of one Player's vision of "what's to come"? If Rail-Roading is the answer, how is it done so the group sees the greater plan as a natural progression of gameplay?
Thanks for your input, Capital-
-
i suppose the easiest method is "Red Herrings": give the Precog visions depicting action around the key event & have them chase after that. It happens, but has no direct correlation to the greater event impacting the game. Except in combat situations, where "seeing the future" can anticipate actions.
I looked for superheroes with Precognition & found NONE. Odd. Even the Silver Surfer, former "herald-of-Galactus" could only see the past & current events.
Looking at "Madame (Cassandra) Web", I found an NPC who used Precognition to aid heroes like Spider-Man. She led them to crimes, without revealing the outcome. Perhaps that's it.
Precognition leads heroes to crime & crisis, without revealing the outcome: thus & so crooks mass at thus & so place for an unknown crime. My issue is, if the PCs counter the crimninals' activity early-on, how do we arrive at the future event?
It's a pickle.
-
(http://i.imgur.com/ja6goF6.png)
-
Thank you to everyone that provided advice & comments. I'm feeling much more confident about the topic of "seeing the future". You folks have been great! Thanks again.
-
unconscious precog: potential in game effects: combat bonuses, 'cannot be surprised', 'cannot be stunned', etc. potential out of game effects: allow player to nullify actions, skip actions/scenes
conscious precog: other potential out of game effects: GM gives the player the stats and/or write ups of the NPCs they encounter and/or the scenes and/or the adventure
either way, i'd recommending there being some sort of important cost for the ability -- increases awareness by the Things from the Dungeon Dimension, gives the user extreme bad luck, does health damage, limited # of uses, becomes a patsy for a crime, etc etc
you could even be artsy with the precog and say, after a campaign or an adventure or scene or interaction that it didn't really happen but was really the character's precog in action
-
How do they precog? That can change how/what you give them.
-
My idea for precognition is the fact that the instant you look at the future, you're changing the future. If you stand and concentrate on a vision, you aren't moving in the world, and so the future you are seeing is not the one that will now occur. Sure, if you were sitting at home or reading in a library anyway its minor, in the middle of a battle where every millisecond counts, that's a far quicker ripple with more consequence.
So a character is not only trying to do something impossible like have memories of events that haven't happened yet, but they are then being punished by having the mind splitting experience of having contradictory memories of things that haven't happened yet in their brain.
So to start with I would imagine that makes such visions be detached the moment they begin, with the side effect of pain and disorientation, and so only an 'impression' of both likely futures occuring. It allows you to hint at clues, and in a battle maybe hint at an action.
The player can slowly get control of how long they can stand the pain to actually see a proper vision, and after that be able to start gaining the ability to throw their mind more accurately to a point in time in future. Although the further you go, the more even your pause and likely use of the knowledge will have made waves and so the worse such mental trauma will be.
It seems a nice echo of the quantum physics 'the observer changes the observed' and also explains why all prophesy is so damned convoluted and riddle like - short visions and deliberate obfuscation to not instantly invalidate the vision.
Anyway, that's how I'd do it. It can be a powerful ability in combat or for plot hints, but you automatically build in a fudge factor for why the future turns out differently if the players then do something strange. You can blame the original player, or the other player's foreknowledge, as derailing the time. Just make sure there was still a benefit.
And you can have personal cost be the disorientation in battle, up to the potential for the player to be permanently damaging their mind and suffering mental health issues. Those can be tweaked as the game goes in order to provide a buffer against abuse. And even side quest opportunities to relief their mind, or learn to control their powers more.
And if the players can precog, then you can set them against an enemy precog later once they get a good handle on their abilities to further buffer the seen future as opposed to how the players play the game. I'm thinking ideas like in Push where you end up with a cat and mouse game.
-
Well, if they know the future because they came from there, they have to account for the butterfly effect as they change the past, with some things like earthquakes still going off. So they have more an idea or big picture than exacts.
If they get dreams and potents then it's all symbols and gibberish anyway.
If they look to the direct future it's always changing as they look and change their plans so it's unclear.
Do they look to alternate futures?
Is there free will in your game? Oddly, by being a dice RPG there kind of is, or at least chaos as rolls are unknown.
What do they want from the power? Do they want to win bets on sports games? Do they want to Bill and Ted problems away? If they just want you to create garbled messages for them it's not a problem.
You can try a thing where they can look for certain things and be there, arranging a meeting on a street where the IRA is about to explode a car or knowing when a fire alarm will go off etc.
-
A great use of the Precognition power I've seen is in Dark Heresy: it gives a bonus to dodge and parry while active, like seeing what the opponent will do just before they do it. It doesn't work at all in a story busting capacity.
As for the seeing the future, I like the idea of split time lines occurring across multiple parrallel universes, so what they see may not be what they empirically experience, just what happens in one possible stream of existence.
You could also play the "Final Destination" angle where they cheat the foreseen outcome, but the end result occurs in other ways.
-
unconscious precog: potential in game effects: combat bonuses, 'cannot be surprised', 'cannot be stunned', etc. potential out of game effects: allow player to nullify actions, skip actions/scenes
conscious precog: other potential out of game effects: GM gives the player the stats and/or write ups of the NPCs they encounter and/or the scenes and/or the adventure
either way, i'd recommending there being some sort of important cost for the ability -- increases awareness by the Things from the Dungeon Dimension, gives the user extreme bad luck, does health damage, limited # of uses, becomes a patsy for a crime, etc etc
you could even be artsy with the precog and say, after a campaign or an adventure or scene or interaction that it didn't really happen but was really the character's precog in action
I'm running it as dream-states (when the hero sleeps) & more immediate-focused awareness ("such & such is coming"). So, it will have serious impact without throwing my game down the drain. Thankfully, the player has placed control of the power in my hands.
Thanks, QRP!
-
How do they precog? That can change how/what you give them.
As stated above, I'm limiting it to dream-states & certain emergency situations. The ones that count, while giving the hero a vague awareness of danger or doom in situations that aren't that important to the game.
-
My idea for precognition is the fact that the instant you look at the future, you're changing the future. If you stand and concentrate on a vision, you aren't moving in the world, and so the future you are seeing is not the one that will now occur. Sure, if you were sitting at home or reading in a library anyway its minor, in the middle of a battle where every millisecond counts, that's a far quicker ripple with more consequence.
So a character is not only trying to do something impossible like have memories of events that haven't happened yet, but they are then being punished by having the mind splitting experience of having contradictory memories of things that haven't happened yet in their brain.
So to start with I would imagine that makes such visions be detached the moment they begin, with the side effect of pain and disorientation, and so only an 'impression' of both likely futures occuring. It allows you to hint at clues, and in a battle maybe hint at an action.
The player can slowly get control of how long they can stand the pain to actually see a proper vision, and after that be able to start gaining the ability to throw their mind more accurately to a point in time in future. Although the further you go, the more even your pause and likely use of the knowledge will have made waves and so the worse such mental trauma will be.
It seems a nice echo of the quantum physics 'the observer changes the observed' and also explains why all prophesy is so damned convoluted and riddle like - short visions and deliberate obfuscation to not instantly invalidate the vision.
Anyway, that's how I'd do it. It can be a powerful ability in combat or for plot hints, but you automatically build in a fudge factor for why the future turns out differently if the players then do something strange. You can blame the original player, or the other player's foreknowledge, as derailing the time. Just make sure there was still a benefit.
And you can have personal cost be the disorientation in battle, up to the potential for the player to be permanently damaging their mind and suffering mental health issues. Those can be tweaked as the game goes in order to provide a buffer against abuse. And even side quest opportunities to relief their mind, or learn to control their powers more.
And if the players can precog, then you can set them against an enemy precog later once they get a good handle on their abilities to further buffer the seen future as opposed to how the players play the game. I'm thinking ideas like in Push where you end up with a cat and mouse game.
Beo,
I disagree that seeing the future changes it. Many of us have seen the future, while we dare not admit it. I've had friends tell me the future they've seen - odd proclamations that seem insane - until it happens. I think the future is based on mathematical logic: this + this = that. There's a whole science dedicated to predicting future events that I've studied for years. Regardless, predicting exact events is curious & tricky & requires a supreme level of logic to make the knowledge of any use.
I like how you think. I'm doing a similar thing in regard to using Precognition: it drives the hero's power levels up, akin to Marvel's Phoenix. She gets more powerful with each vision, becoming a greater threat to everyone around her as her vision of the future becomes clearer & clearer. As close she comes to holding the future in her hands, the closer she comes to becoming a Goddess. Eventually, she grasps full control of the ability, while at the same time losing her grasp on her sanity.
Then, I take the character sheet & have some fun, giving it back only when they hero is forced to face the terrible power she can't control. It's ugly, but the very best story I've ever read in comics was Chris Claremont's "Dark Phoenix" saga. What's the very worst thing for a hero? To lose control of that power they use to protect others. To become a slave to their own uncontrollable Chaos.
I'll visit it again in my game - I did this decades ago with a female Fighter who gained a cursed sword.
i guess the question is; am I being fair?
-
Well, if they know the future because they came from there, they have to account for the butterfly effect as they change the past, with some things like earthquakes still going off. So they have more an idea or big picture than exacts.
If they get dreams and potents then it's all symbols and gibberish anyway.
If they look to the direct future it's always changing as they look and change their plans so it's unclear.
Do they look to alternate futures?
Is there free will in your game? Oddly, by being a dice RPG there kind of is, or at least chaos as rolls are unknown.
What do they want from the power? Do they want to win bets on sports games? Do they want to Bill and Ted problems away? If they just want you to create garbled messages for them it's not a problem.
You can try a thing where they can look for certain things and be there, arranging a meeting on a street where the IRA is about to explode a car or knowing when a fire alarm will go off etc.
This hero is from an alternate (Marvel) Earth reality where she was the child of Charles Xavier & Moira MacTaggart. She's a versatile telepath with power-armor. I thought to play with the notions of her new-world identity by introducing her to X-men she doesn't know, a Franklin Richards who knows her & Kevin - the reality-warping mutant son of Moira MacTaggart who sees the heroine as his "sister".
Plus, she's growing in power like Phoenix.
I thought alternate futures would work, but in-game, doing that makes the power ineffective.
i want to show her what's to come, in a way that gives the player CHOICE. Isn't that the meat of this? The player needs choice or I invalidate a power that should grant ultimate awareness.
So far, I have her seeing the key 1st Act event & the appearance of her "brother" (evil mutant), which occur at different times but relate to the greater game as twisted events.
LST, I like your mind. Tell me more ........
-
Well, if they know the future because they came from there, they have to account for the butterfly effect as they change the past, with some things like earthquakes still going off. So they have more an idea or big picture than exacts.
If they get dreams and potents then it's all symbols and gibberish anyway.
If they look to the direct future it's always changing as they look and change their plans so it's unclear.
Do they look to alternate futures?
Is there free will in your game? Oddly, by being a dice RPG there kind of is, or at least chaos as rolls are unknown.
What do they want from the power? Do they want to win bets on sports games? Do they want to Bill and Ted problems away? If they just want you to create garbled messages for them it's not a problem.
You can try a thing where they can look for certain things and be there, arranging a meeting on a street where the IRA is about to explode a car or knowing when a fire alarm will go off etc.
YES, to free will. I wanted that paramount. Hence my issue with Precognition in relation to player decisions.
If I see myself sweeping the kitchen, LST, should I be sweeping the kitchen at some point?
That's been resolved, thanks to Forum posters, to immediate events & dream-states that detail easy Scene openings.
What does the player want from the power? Clarity, that makes the power effective. It bothered me at first, but now I have some kind of handle on it.
right. Focus on a key event I can reveal the best outcome to & running with that. I'm okay with most of the games (20+) sub-Plots rendering an outcome visible by the hero. As long as the End is preserved.
Or is preserving the End worthwhile? Can a game be called "good" if the climactic ending is sacrificed?
-
A great use of the Precognition power I've seen is in Dark Heresy: it gives a bonus to dodge and parry while active, like seeing what the opponent will do just before they do it. It doesn't work at all in a story busting capacity.
As for the seeing the future, I like the idea of split time lines occurring across multiple parrallel universes, so what they see may not be what they empirically experience, just what happens in one possible stream of existence.
You could also play the "Final Destination" angle where they cheat the foreseen outcome, but the end result occurs in other ways.
If only I could limit this power to combat effects.
Ckenp, if you built a hero with Precognition, would you be satisfied with only combat bonuses?
No, likely. You'd want to see "what is coming". It's only fair, right?
As addressed earlier, limiting Precogs to "alternate reality" visions makes the power ineffective. It's like throwing a punch you're not sure hit it's target, even when you hit. Unfair.
As GM, I need to create future visions that truly do manifest, while keeping the visions safely outside the realm of "this key action changes the tide of action". and even then, maybe I should present that vision that reveals enough plot to make the game a "walk-through". No?
Even with what I've decided to do in order to accommodate the player, I'm still in the dark here.
The funny thing: no podcast has addressed Precognition. Yet. Not one. If Ross & Co. can get there 1st, it's safe to say many of the other 'casts will fall in line w/ like topics. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, no?
-
On top of this current game concept, i have another that is pure Precog:
What if you could prevent the Kennedy assassination?
I have that game & it really troubles me. Changing the past & all. Could you? How? What's the result?
I playtested it with my group & they stopped talking to me for a few days. They failed. They didn't see all the angles.
Seeing & changing history is an amazing setting. I know a few gaming companies see the potential of "shifted RPG settings",
but, flirting with the idea of altering Time itself is, perhaps, the grandest RPG setting - the grandest goal of players - we as GMs
could imagine.
Done properly, you can turn your gaming groups upside-down.
What do you think?
-
Why not just make precognition by the character's own view of the future?
Player: "Oh I look into the future."
GM: "You don't see anything"
Player: "But that's my super power."
GM: "You probably don't exist at that time then."
Foreshadowing character death spurs them to action to stop the event, and if they manage to stop the event and survive it can always be explained that with their power they changed the future. Eventually this approach would get old and formulaic but that is the case with any campaign driven by a guy who can see the long running consequences of everything.
-
Beo,
I disagree that seeing the future changes it.
No problem, I had my sneaky bastard GM hat on. That's the way I'd fudge and balance it, by selling it that the players have too much agency rather than none :D If this was a normal story, I think playing with predestination as a solid construct to fight against is more fun that instant fluidity. I've done so with prophetic visions in prose I've written before.
For the sounds of your story, I think that you need to have each vision not just a random one that is useful to the player. Well, you can do that in combat in the way suggested, perhaps as a tactical choice of whom gets focused on and gets a small but meningful bonus.
Outside of combat, a vision should implicitly grant a responsibility. She gets a vision of someone doing good and being in power. There';s almost an automatic 'do you let this happen' due to some aspect of the vision. After that, she gets further visions when interacting with other NPCs and PCs that show the necessary steps for that first vision. Each time, there should be a dramatic implication - alter the timeline or defend it.
Basically, have the players choose to railroad themselves or not, and have both paths be interesting. It's up to them if they mess up your constructed story, and so you have to worry less about justifying why things aren't going the same way if the push against it.
Throw in some arbitrary visions to do with player conflict - she seems herself stabbing one of the players. If that player later mucks up the timeline, you can retcon that her choice earlier on something directly led to this invalidating of the future.
Or, of course, when another player is going to do a vision breaking action, pause the action, have the vision of the alternate future flash in her mind as a retcon, and then see if she blocks the player or lets thing happen.
-
Slept on it & the whole "loosing control of powers" thing is bad. very bad.
I'll just focus on making the precog ability effective.
I appreciate all the advice, people. I've listened to everything Ross, Tom & crew have recorded, but this is my first time on the forum.
Hopefully when I get stumped in the future, I can drop by here again & get more of your insights.
-
Why not just make precognition by the character's own view of the future?
Player: "Oh I look into the future."
GM: "You don't see anything"
Player: "But that's my super power."
GM: "You probably don't exist at that time then."
Foreshadowing character death spurs them to action to stop the event, and if they manage to stop the event and survive it can always be explained that with their power they changed the future. Eventually this approach would get old and formulaic but that is the case with any campaign driven by a guy who can see the long running consequences of everything.
LoL. nice @ "but that's my power". You guys are probably some evil so&so GMs.
The more I think about it, the more Hulk head hurt! So, I'm just gonna do whatever makes the player happy & if the game ends in 6 minutes, I'll make a note to prohibit Precognition - in the future!
Thanks, Mighty Atlas :D
-
(http://i.imgur.com/ja6goF6.png)
*groan*
what WAS a good film about Precognition?
"Minority report"? ugh
the one with Nicholas Cage - the plane crash was neet-o!
-
Why not just make precognition by the character's own view of the future?
Player: "Oh I look into the future."
GM: "You don't see anything"
Player: "But that's my super power."
GM: "You probably don't exist at that time then."
Foreshadowing character death spurs them to action to stop the event, and if they manage to stop the event and survive it can always be explained that with their power they changed the future. Eventually this approach would get old and formulaic but that is the case with any campaign driven by a guy who can see the long running consequences of everything.
da fuq is going on with your avatar
-
On top of this current game concept, i have another that is pure Precog:
What if you could prevent the Kennedy assassination?
I have that game & it really troubles me. Changing the past & all. Could you? How? What's the result?
I playtested it with my group & they stopped talking to me for a few days. They failed. They didn't see all the angles.
Seeing & changing history is an amazing setting. I know a few gaming companies see the potential of "shifted RPG settings",
but, flirting with the idea of altering Time itself is, perhaps, the grandest RPG setting - the grandest goal of players - we as GMs
could imagine.
Done properly, you can turn your gaming groups upside-down.
What do you think?
Whatever you do, remember your games are fiction and don't have to follow any of the rules of reality that you have to follow :3
Your post reminded me of my favourite time-travel RPG called Continuum. Here's their website http://www.aetherco.com/continuum/
Here's another idear for Precog: the Precog actually creates the future. That could mean an interesting campaign where
perhaps gov'ts/other groups realize this and try to control it. Imagine a modern game where jihadists can create the future...:3
-
Beo,
I disagree that seeing the future changes it.
No problem, I had my sneaky bastard GM hat on. That's the way I'd fudge and balance it, by selling it that the players have too much agency rather than none :D If this was a normal story, I think playing with predestination as a solid construct to fight against is more fun that instant fluidity. I've done so with prophetic visions in prose I've written before.
For the sounds of your story, I think that you need to have each vision not just a random one that is useful to the player. Well, you can do that in combat in the way suggested, perhaps as a tactical choice of whom gets focused on and gets a small but meningful bonus.
Outside of combat, a vision should implicitly grant a responsibility. She gets a vision of someone doing good and being in power. There';s almost an automatic 'do you let this happen' due to some aspect of the vision. After that, she gets further visions when interacting with other NPCs and PCs that show the necessary steps for that first vision. Each time, there should be a dramatic implication - alter the timeline or defend it.
Basically, have the players choose to railroad themselves or not, and have both paths be interesting. It's up to them if they mess up your constructed story, and so you have to worry less about justifying why things aren't going the same way if the push against it.
Throw in some arbitrary visions to do with player conflict - she seems herself stabbing one of the players. If that player later mucks up the timeline, you can retcon that her choice earlier on something directly led to this invalidating of the future.
Or, of course, when another player is going to do a vision breaking action, pause the action, have the vision of the alternate future flash in her mind as a retcon, and then see if she blocks the player or lets thing happen.
I'm pretty sure i'm not smart enough to pull that off.
But i like it, regardless.
You ever run a game you thought was air-tight & you get to the end (climactic, even) & one of your players says, "wait. that can't happen!"
gods. I hate that. loathe it. But, precognition invites such events. It hides, lurking, waiting for me to miss how such&such event links to such&such later event & BOOM! I missed crossing arcs & their logical outcome.
Just tell me how to handle this & I'll do it. If the hero "sees something", then later actions invalidate that vision, i retcon that her actions changed things. Changed a "probable outcome". Right?
Times like this I hate Superhero games.
-
On top of this current game concept, i have another that is pure Precog:
What if you could prevent the Kennedy assassination?
I have that game & it really troubles me. Changing the past & all. Could you? How? What's the result?
I playtested it with my group & they stopped talking to me for a few days. They failed. They didn't see all the angles.
Seeing & changing history is an amazing setting. I know a few gaming companies see the potential of "shifted RPG settings",
but, flirting with the idea of altering Time itself is, perhaps, the grandest RPG setting - the grandest goal of players - we as GMs
could imagine.
Done properly, you can turn your gaming groups upside-down.
What do you think?
Whatever you do, remember your games are fiction and don't have to follow any of the rules of reality that you have to follow :3
Your post reminded me of my favourite time-travel RPG called Continuum. Here's their website http://www.aetherco.com/continuum/
Here's another idear for Precog: the Precog actually creates the future. That could mean an interesting campaign where
perhaps gov'ts/other groups realize this and try to control it. Imagine a modern game where jihadists can create the future...:3
okay so - this is set in the Marvel universe & the hero is from an alternate reality Marvel - alternate to the game Alternate. yeah.
so, she sees the future (based on the comments I'm getting, an alternate future) & wrecks my game - BUT, she has a brother (born from the same woman, different dimension) who can warp reality around him. So.
I was looking at washing the player's experience with a twist of (a) the effects of heroine's precognition (b) the effects heroine's telepathic powers (c) the effects of her "brother's" reality-warping power, to create dream-like scenes where the player/heroine has to constantly question the reality of the environment.
"What is real?" that's my theme for that heroine.
Make sense? Suggestions?
-
okay so - this is set in the Marvel universe & the hero is from an alternate reality Marvel - alternate to the game Alternate. yeah.
so, she sees the future (based on the comments I'm getting, an alternate future) & wrecks my game - BUT, she has a brother (born from the same woman, different dimension) who can warp reality around him. So.
I was looking at washing the player's experience with a twist of (a) the effects of heroine's precognition (b) the effects heroine's telepathic powers (c) the effects of her "brother's" reality-warping power, to create dream-like scenes where the player/heroine has to constantly question the reality of the environment.
"What is real?" that's my theme for that heroine.
Make sense? Suggestions?
Just throw concerns for balance out of the window and just focus on the effects of the powers on the setting, and how far they are willing to go with it. Have her be approached by the government, and companies to project the future for them. Make the public worry about the safety of their own thoughts, and sanity when there is a person out there who can read minds and effect what they think.
If there's a person out there WARPING REALITY then most government bodies are going to want to hunt him the fuck down. People are going to be questioning their very existence if someone can do this. Some will call him God, others will want to use his power to their own ends. Have him have a cult following, have people want to capture the sister because she is related to a man who can do these things, and possibly bring him out of hiding after their kidnapping. Possibly make an environmental movement is concerned about metas altering reality instead of greenhouse gases.
Alternatively it's the Marvel Universe so people might just shrug and ignore both of them until they become involved in a Crossover Event.
-
okay so - this is set in the Marvel universe & the hero is from an alternate reality Marvel - alternate to the game Alternate. yeah.
so, she sees the future (based on the comments I'm getting, an alternate future) & wrecks my game - BUT, she has a brother (born from the same woman, different dimension) who can warp reality around him. So.
I was looking at washing the player's experience with a twist of (a) the effects of heroine's precognition (b) the effects heroine's telepathic powers (c) the effects of her "brother's" reality-warping power, to create dream-like scenes where the player/heroine has to constantly question the reality of the environment.
"What is real?" that's my theme for that heroine.
Make sense? Suggestions?
Just throw concerns for balance out of the window and just focus on the effects of the powers on the setting, and how far they are willing to go with it. Have her be approached by the government, and companies to project the future for them. Make the public worry about the safety of their own thoughts, and sanity when there is a person out there who can read minds and effect what they think.
If there's a person out there WARPING REALITY then most government bodies are going to want to hunt him the fuck down. People are going to be questioning their very existence if someone can do this. Some will call him God, others will want to use his power to their own ends. Have him have a cult following, have people want to capture the sister because she is related to a man who can do these things, and possibly bring him out of hiding after their kidnapping. Possibly make an environmental movement is concerned about metas altering reality instead of greenhouse gases.
Alternatively it's the Marvel Universe so people might just shrug and ignore both of them until they become involved in a Crossover Event.
LoL! I like you, Atlas.
I'll incorporate that government aspect, since the other hero (this is a "Power Man & Iron Fist" kinda duo) has strong government ties.
Might create inter-hero conflict. Bonus. But, the brother NPC is an evil SOB, so I'm using him as "the curious god-like entity that haunts the heroine" character. He's way too Plot-Device to have a real impact on scenes, outside of "what are you doing, heroine? I want ice cream!"
If Uncle Sam focuses on her to get to him, is that too much side-track? I thought 20+ Sub-Plots was enough, but adding the "Government vs. Mutant" line might throw the game far outside the intended line.
Ever have players take a game so off-the-rails they can't get back? yeah. Imagine any D&D module where the 2nd team of recently-generated PCs decide to avoid any & all contact, while trying to get to through the dungeon. did that. hated it.
I want an honest game that allows the players' heroes to shine like stars & they feel, "hey - this guy's not out to kill us after all."
Then I almost kill them & they revel in their climactic triumph! yay!
okay. If you were a player & your hero had precognition, would you trade it for a FREE power of your choice? I need to get a feeling for alternatives. Illusion is a great power. Mind Control, even.
-
You can just give them dreams as mini-scenes, have some of the elements blanked out. They see someone shooting an ally in the back but not who's doing the shooting. Or show them a pivital point in the plot, they see someone talking about how talks have failed and giving the command to attack etc.
I'd go with two choices for the future they see:
First, this is what is going to happen unless they alter the situation. They and their influince are "outside" their vision.
Second is that they see what will happen according to their current plans, they see a likely result of their plan or kind of watch through the event in fast forward getting an idea of how some events play out.
Either way you don't have to give away the whole thing, they may know that Kevin (the dude who showed up in Exiles?) is there but not what body he's wearing. Or what exactly happens behind the door but that at least one person is going to die.
You can also add in random flashes of knowledge, something like "there's a dude with a gun behind that door," or "Don't read that book."
-
You can just give them dreams as mini-scenes, have some of the elements blanked out. They see someone shooting an ally in the back but not who's doing the shooting. Or show them a pivital point in the plot, they see someone talking about how talks have failed and giving the command to attack etc.
I'd go with two choices for the future they see:
First, this is what is going to happen unless they alter the situation. They and their influince are "outside" their vision.
Second is that they see what will happen according to their current plans, they see a likely result of their plan or kind of watch through the event in fast forward getting an idea of how some events play out.
Either way you don't have to give away the whole thing, they may know that Kevin (the dude who showed up in Exiles?) is there but not what body he's wearing. Or what exactly happens behind the door but that at least one person is going to die.
You can also add in random flashes of knowledge, something like "there's a dude with a gun behind that door," or "Don't read that book."
That looks real good. Thanks, LST!