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General Category => Role Playing Public Radio Podcast => : CommissarKip January 10, 2014, 05:53:00 AM

: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: CommissarKip January 10, 2014, 05:53:00 AM
Caleb got me to design an RPG.

I spoke to Ross some time ago during which I confessed the above. During our talk I casually mentioned that it would be cool if there would be a thread on the RPPR forums where victims students of the Caleb & Ross school of Gamedesign could share their stuff and discuss the posted episodes.

So here it is. I suggest we use this to keep one another informed and to help each-other through this not yet officially diagnosed life crisis like an AA hugging circle (we don't do coins).

To kick this off here's my confession :

Being of sound mind and spirit, I'm a philosophy graduate student designing a Pen and Paper Role Playing Game. This thing is keeping me going through the trials and tribulations of my dissertation. My game will be having custom mechanics underneath the hood. My game does not have a set theme yet. My game doesn't even have a name yet.

But it will exist, damn it. Like Dr. Frankenstein I shall stitch together a monstrosity that might survive the pitchfork-and-torch armed mob of the Gaming Industry Customer or the witch trial of the Gaming Industry Professional, emerging as a beautiful thing. Or it might die a sad, unplayable death as a failed experiment behind cell-door bars.

Let's see if we can fill our dungeons with half breeds and failed experiments.



: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Gorkamorka January 10, 2014, 07:09:19 AM
Cool
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Tadanori Oyama January 10, 2014, 11:58:52 AM
I'm in for group therapy. I'm playing around with some ideas for an RPG myself thanks to the Design Podcast.
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Cthuluzord January 11, 2014, 12:11:25 PM
This is awesome! Keep us all posted on how things are going.

BTW, Ross and I recorded an episode in November. That should be posted sometime when he is in China.
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Cthuluzord January 12, 2014, 03:39:19 PM
I thought I'd get our little repository of knowledge going. Here's a link to my latest blog post. I talk about the "joys" of POD publication.

http://hebanon.blogspot.com/2014/01/learning-to-pod.html
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Tadanori Oyama January 17, 2014, 06:40:52 PM
So I've done some soul searching and I think that I can get everything that I want out of Fate Core as a system. That saves me trying to create an entire engine of my own. So, I think I want to move forward with those mechanics in mind. But now I need to look into how the Creative Commons License thing works. It seems extremely open from what I can find online but I don't want to plow ahead without doing a little more reading. Anyone experience with the CCL 3.0?

... AA hugging circle (we don't do coins).

Note to self: schedule Game Design sub-section of RPPR Meet-Up. And have coins made. OH! Or dice.
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: clockworkjoe January 17, 2014, 09:50:01 PM
You could contact Fred Hicks at Evil Hat and ask him to clarify the CC license.
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Jace911 January 17, 2014, 10:52:23 PM
After listening to one and a half of the podcast episodes thus far I decided to finally sit down and write up a rough concept for the game idea I've been kicking around in my head for a while: Minions and Mooks (Probably not final name), or "what if the GM plays the hero and the PCs are kobolds".

I don't know if I want to look into using FATE Core like TO or wade into the eldritch bog of custom game mechanics, but I do know more or less what kind of gameplay I want from my system: the players will be working together to defeat singular, much more powerful enemies than them. That might sound like every RPG ever, but what I want out of it is to force them not only to work together but to build their characters in such a way that they coordinate and play off each other mechanically (And maybe even narratively if I can somehow finangle that) by giving each class an ability that specifically ties into another class; IE "you are a rogue and you get X bonus if there is a friendly Tank within sight" or something like that.

In addition, the players will die. Probably a lot. When they do they roll up new semi-random characters and continue with minimal penalty (You lose a certain amount of experience but not so much that you're useless to a veteran party depending on what 'tier' you're in) but they have to be careful not to experience an abundance of deaths or they will fail their assigned task/mission/operation as their master or whoever decides to avoid the sunken cost fallacy and just fires the survivors. Possibly out of a cannon, into the sun. Of course, the flip side of this is that character progression isn't individual, but collective; everyone advances at the same rate (With potentially smaller individual bonuses depending on how dangerous I want to get with the leveling) to represent their oversight officer/supervillain master/Dick Cheney investing more time and effort into their gear and training, which is why Bob 034 is more or less just as effective as his late predecessor Bob 033. There will also probably tiers of some sort, ranging from "Rookie/FNG" to "Go-Getter/Dude from Buffy who dual-wielded M4s like a boss" to "Lieutenant/Right-Hand Man".

As for setting I also have the gleeful challenge of writing this game's mechanics and classes and equipment and such so that the game can be modular, since one of the underlying ideas I have for it is that you can apply it to pretty much any setting that has a dude in charge of a bunch of weaker dudes who run off and die trying to accomplish some sort of objective. Evil necromancer's army, government agency dedicated to hunting mutants, alien infiltrators tasked with eliminating superheroes to prepare for an invasion, etc etc. I want people to be able to sit down and play XCOM just as easily as they do Stormtrooper Academy Graduate Squad or whatever.

Of course this is all literally what I just wrote down after letting the idea stew for ages and then trying to scoop it all out of my head and jot it down coherently. I'll be amazed if half of this makes it into the "official" rough draft alpha, but it's nice to want things.

Inspirations were XCOM (As mentioned), Agents of SHIELD, Heroes (The Company), RPPR's Tribes of Tokyo campaign, and probably more than a few others I'm forgetting.
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Tadanori Oyama January 18, 2014, 02:53:29 AM
Fate probably wouldn't work well for what you are describing Jace. I think you want to go really rules light.

It actually makes me think of Rogue Legacy but with a party instead of an individual.
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Cthuluzord January 19, 2014, 09:03:43 AM
@Jace

I think you can monkey with Fate enough to get it to do anything, especially after playing the wetting of BaseRaiders in WT and switching over to the BaseRaiders system later.

I am learning first hand how horrible it can be to try and design a rules system from scratch, but at the same time I get the impression that in the industry there is this new idea that since FATE exists there is no need to design new systems; just write your book as a FATE product. I hope that isn't the case for long (and some old timers that were there for the first days of GURPS tell me it wont last). I have nothing against FATE, but even a less popular new system contributes to the discussion of design. I think, even if Red Markets is a failure, I will have learned much more about RPGs in general for having tried to design new mechanics for it rather than adapting it to something.

So that's my two cents.
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Tadanori Oyama January 20, 2014, 02:27:29 PM
Something not unlike that happened with d20. Alot of major games used d20 when it probably wasn't the best option for them because D&D was big and d20 was the widely known system. Players in the broad sense are resistant to learning new game systems so hitting what's common is the best way to ensure a game is actually played.

With the current spike in popularity for FATE we're seeing a big number of games for it. If your goals as far as game design don't involve mechanics modeling but rather setting than FATE makes the most sense, economically and practically.

On a personal note, since my plans do involve mechanics considerations, thanks so much for making me doubt my previous atestation to my previous choice. I am now reconsidering trying to create me own system by going back to the drawing door and outlying my design goals again. Elbow deep in post-it notes already. Thanks Caleb.
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Tadanori Oyama January 20, 2014, 07:43:38 PM
Changing subjects I'd like to workshop something:

If a game specifically focuses on combat as the major mechanic of the game, is a complex damage system to the benefit or detriment of the game? Personally I like complex damage systems because they hypothetically give people a clearer mental image of the effects of their actions and the actions taken against them. At the same time, having damage to too complex makes for busy work and confusion (as with adding basically any additional rules).

So, in a hypothetical game focusing on superhuman brutality and inter-gang street fights would a system that incompasses general body locations (arms, legs, torso, head, etc) and layers of the body to be damaged (skin, muscles, bone, organs, etc) be helpful or harmful? I'm inclined towards helpful (to showcase the brutality and injury) and I'm curious what others think.
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Cthuluzord January 20, 2014, 09:50:29 PM
Based on seeing nothing at all of the product  :o I think that both tissue layers AND hit locations might be too much to keep track of. Complex damage is good for the reasons you say, but if calculating damage lengthens the amount of time in the combat for the next actual blow to land, it's going to feel like it's taking away from the experience...ESPECIALLY since damage brings negative consequences that some players don't tend to like at all, regardless of narrative.

Complex damage is good, but I'd just make sure it doesn't slow down combat more than it has to. WT is my favorite hit locations system in that regard.
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Tadanori Oyama January 20, 2014, 11:10:11 PM
Jumping subjects again as I bounce between project ideas let me as about point spending systems. GUMSHOE is the big one now that I know of and not many others. I like the idea but I have heard people complain about the ideas.

It can be complex to track spent points and refreshes of used points with lots of erasing and rewriting.

At the same time I like the clear arc it provides by putting a limit on specific actions or skills. it has some inbuilt drama.

So, drama vs convenience? Thoughts on point spend in general? Other framing?
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Tadanori Oyama January 22, 2014, 12:40:03 PM
Complex damage is good, but I'd just make sure it doesn't slow down combat more than it has to. WT is my favorite hit locations system in that regard.

After some pondering, quick idea for a model.

1d10 rolled to resolve; 7-9 succeed, 10 is additional success, and 1 a horrible failure.

Deal with tissue layers as main focus with bleeding as a secondary. Hit locations aren't mechanical but narrative to explain locations of injury. Remove "called shots" in favor of all attacks being targeted to a location, ie "I swing for his head" instead of "I attack".

Attack success is automatic unless prevented. Defender rolls to evade. On success the Defender avoids damage. On a failure the Defender can opt to change what is struck within narrative reason ("I hold my arm up to protect my head"). On 1 the attacker gets a clear shot.

Damage is 1d10 with static bonuses for more harmful weapons (+2, +3, etc).

Injury is tracked in two manners: vital area and non-vital area, with damage values attached to each layer. Layers are tracked in three dimensions.

Non-vital areas (arm, leg) are skin(1), muscle(2), bone(4), muscle(2), skin(1).

Vital areas (torso, head) are skin(1), muscle(2), bone(4), vitals (1), bone(4), muscle(2), skin(1).

If someone is wearing any sort of protection then that must be penetrated prior to skin, ie Big Fluffy Jacket(1).

Damage is "absorbed" as  it passes through each section. So if an attacker used a knife (+0 weapon) to attack someone and rolled a 2 for damage the attack would pierce the skin and into the muscle but not reach the bone, a 'flesh wound'.

After being wounded the victim begins bleeding. All normal characters have 100 blood points. Bleeding each action is equal to layers penetrated squared. Each wound is considered seperately. So the stab above would cause only a single point of bleeding because only 1 layer was fully penetrated. Characters suffer cumulative penalties at 50, 25, and 10 blood points. At 0 blood points a character dies.

Any wound that did not damage vitals can be bandaged or otherwise treated to slow or stop bleeding. Damage to vitals requires special measures.

Some blood points can be restored by replacing blood value and hydrating with water or juice but mostly it takes time.


The base system seems pretty horror gamey. By adding more ways to protect one's self or increase location values it could get much more action centered.

Big flaws? Thoughts? Condemnations for stealing other people's ideas?
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Thesauradon January 22, 2014, 01:48:35 PM
With apologies to Tad, I've been editing this post for hours and don't want to get stuck in an infinite loop.

        Because I am a procrastinator, my journey into RPG design is intended to reform my habits. Thank you to the people in this community for making me a better person!
        I break my game design into the following three categories:

The Inspiration
        “That great poets imitate and improve, whereas small poets steal and spoil.” –W.H. Davenport Adams (To read how this quote has been stolen and spoiled: http://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/03/06/artists-steal/)

        I re-listen to GDW every month, and enough of Caleb’s work ethic has subconsciously stuck in my brain to make me start planning. Since the first episode I have plotted 8 different adventure scenarios; my general game design principles; and the design mandates for rewriting the Cthulhutech RPG, which is my group’s Palladium.
 (Remember the F.A.T.A.L. review? Here’s the spiritual successor http://tradwiki.foxxtrot.net/index.php/FATAL_%26_Friends:_B-C#CthulhuTech_.28by_Ettin.29)

        However, for my first attempt I want to imitate and improve upon the best material available, so I’m going to rip it straight from Caleb’s brain.
 
The Concept
        In Episode 85: We Three Games, Caleb pitches “sling stone”, described as “The Boys without the sophomoric cussing and sex jokes and absurd Irishness”. I want to write this game (Caleb-willing). A game about people, from the special operative badass to the societally-oppressed single mother, who are tired of putting up with superhumans. Superhumans fly in the face of Justice and forget the consequences of their actions as often as they forget their own history and allegiances. You want them gone. Are you going to kill them or can you destroy their reputation? Do you hope to capture them first? How do you crush an invincible being? Let’s find out.
        Before I write it, I am following the New Arcadia playbook for superhero games and running a campaign to test the conceits.

The Campaign
        When there’s trouble, you know they called. The Young Vanguard have trashed Marathon City time and again in the name of fighting crime. Safeguarded by city government sponsorship and the lax prosecution levied against heroes in training, the only restitution they ever have to provide is a handshake and a smile. That apartment block they threw the hijacked bus through gets patched up, but only because the international courts ruled that someone, the government or the Paragons, pays when beyond-a-reasonable-doubt heroism can be proved.
        A legal gray area exists between the black-and-white of heroic charity and villainous punitive damages. When the chameleon rhino-trashes your restaurant for a vegan protest or the star-spawn opens a gate above your house during necronomicon book club, that’s recreational power use and clearly not of world-saving significance. The government suggests private legal action and insurance won’t cover you if you don’t have overwhelming evidence and the right premiums paid. The Vanguard’s legal team? They will give ground if you could just see reason and sign this gag order. The institutions know whose fault it is: yours, for being at the wrong place, wrong time.
        You’ve lost life and limb to a gang of emotionally-fueled, mentally-unsound teenage demigods. You’re done with the proper channels. You have a like-minded support group and you will make them pay.

Thesauradon Presents:
“The Kids Aren’t Alright”

My goals, system choice, and challenges will be in the next post.
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Thesauradon January 22, 2014, 01:51:24 PM
Goals
        I want to run a campaign where the players are regular, damaged people. They were folks who lived human lives until one of the Young Vanguard’s off-hours activities made the choice that destroys both of them look like the best choice.
Following this, I don’t want the players to have any special abilities or training. No ninja-trained ex-FARC members or SEALs here. They are going to be on the back end of the power deviation curve.
        I want to employ a system that tracks the awareness and opinion of the three demographics influenced by the party and Vanguard’s actions: the public; the government; the superhuman community. Preferably a pool-style “we spend our social loot points to add to our punditry roll against the Vanguard’s public opinion pool.” “Well, the Vanguard get half that pool to roll the superhuman community’s awareness of your group.”
        I also want to include a Night’s Black Agents-style “intelligence” point bank. The party could spend small amounts to gather hard-to find information on one specific Vanguard member or on the whole team. Larger point spends get better quality information, but making the most of your points requires you to spend them while observing a superhuman in action.
        Lastly, I want a table for “Superhuman random encounters!” because the Vanguard are an active team, the players should have the luck (or lack of) to encounter them in the wild, either on duty or engaged in the kind of “fun” that already ruined their old life.

System
   The only superhero system I have experience with is Wild Talents. It seems appropriate to nail down the team composition and powers of the Superhumans, but I feel like accomplishing my goals will require adding a lot of additional parts to ORE. I’m also not great at estimating point caps for ordinary people.
        All advice is appreciated. My current thought process is that FATE (and Base Raiders) are inappropriate because Aspects are the great equalizer and can be abused to put players on an even footing with the Young Vanguard. FATE is also narrative-heavy and I would prefer more crunch to make powers and gunplay weightier.

Conclusion
        Thank you to Caleb and the community. Let us make this the best campaign possible!
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Tadanori Oyama January 22, 2014, 02:22:23 PM
Cool idea Thesauradon. I really like the legal angle that you've got because it's something from the real world that people can easily borrow from. I know plenty of people who've gotten stuck in stupid legal loopholes and horrible situations without superheroes being involved.

What is the ultimate goal of a campaign? It is to break up Vanguard legally? To get the financial due the players are owed? Or to inflict a more personally crafted revenge?

and the design mandates for rewriting the Cthulhutech RPG, which is my group’s Palladium.

Also, good luck with this. I've been trying to put together a WoD mod to use because I love CthulhuTech so much but the rules just... ugh. Yeah. Anyway, good luck.
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Thesauradon January 22, 2014, 07:40:26 PM
Attack success is automatic unless prevented. Defender rolls to evade. On success the Defender avoids damage. On a failure the Defender can opt to change what is struck within narrative reason ("I hold my arm up to protect my head"). On 1 the attacker gets a clear shot.

Non-vital areas (arm, leg) are skin(1), muscle(2), bone(4), muscle(2), skin(1).

Vital areas (torso, head) are skin(1), muscle(2), bone(4), vitals (1), bone(4), muscle(2), skin(1).

While I find that the mechanics balance well, only having a 1/10 clear shot seems to mitigate the usefulness of having a call-shot style system. If the defender can dodge on 7-10 and change the area struck on 2-6 it seems like combat would devolve into "which of my limbs is the least damaged? I block with that one!"

Now, if perhaps a system was in place for amputation on a 10 instead of just a clear hit, blocking with a limb would have some real risk. Double bleed damage on an amputation? It would create the best Monty Python's black knight duels possible and... I think I just pitched "Chivalry: Tabletop Edition".
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Thesauradon January 22, 2014, 07:57:43 PM
What is the ultimate goal of a campaign? It is to break up Vanguard legally? To get the financial due the players are owed? Or to inflict a more personally crafted revenge?

In the words of General Payton "No plan survives contact with the players", so I see defining the approach as a mistake. Speaking about "The Kids Aren't Alright", any one of those goals has a risk/reward factor and the likelihood is that any of my gaming groups will combine several of them with the intent of maximizing the collateral damage inflicted on the Young Vanguard before they finish the job.

In the broader "Sling Stone" context there could be limiting factors- you can convince Superman to leave the Earth, but you have to put Batman down because just breaking his back/burying him alive/sending him back in time is not enough to stop him. If the campaign focuses on a Boys/Thunderbolts/Suicide squad style group the end goal could be recruiting the Superhuman in question. I'm imagining a "Team Aaron" campaign where the goal is to convince Supervillains to turn good... By any means necessary.

I forgot to add to the goals section that I'd like the individual members of the Vanguard to serve like tiers of play- they can take them out individually and ramp up against the target's power level. It's a lot easier to snipe the member whose head won't grow back.
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Tadanori Oyama January 22, 2014, 08:01:57 PM
If the defender can dodge on 7-10 and change the area struck on 2-6 it seems like combat would devolve into "which of my limbs is the least damaged? I block with that one!"

I see your point. Perhaps raising the success threshold to an 8 and allowing redistribution of damage on a 5-7? Or 6-7? That's more or less a 30% static evasion with 20-30% chance of redirecting the damage.

In an action game were armor might be in use in different places (ie torso or an arm) than interposing one part for another is very useful. In a horror situation with no armor or protection the main concern is protecting one's vitals.

Amputation is the result when all levels are passed through. So a damage result of 10 cuts off a non-vital (ie an arm or leg) at the location called if the weapon is fitting. Being hit in the same wound site multiple times would probably also make an amuptation more likely ("Hack the bone").
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Thesauradon January 22, 2014, 08:29:28 PM
I see your point. Perhaps raising the success threshold to an 8 and allowing redistribution of damage on a 5-7? Or 6-7? That's more or less a 30% static evasion with 20-30% chance of redirecting the damage.

I think that's a model good enough for playtesting to start! A dodge chance of 40% fail 30% redirect 30% succeed seems weighted well enough for everyone except Tom. Either that or change redirect to 6-7 and make it 50% failure, because nobody complains about simpler math.

By the way, I can't wait for the mental combat supplement. "Vital areas: Id (3) Ego(2) Superego (1) Ego (2) Id (3). Total penetration eviscerates their self-identity."
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Tadanori Oyama January 23, 2014, 12:58:37 AM
Ha! I hadn't thought about social and mental combat rules but I suppose the same rules more or less follow using declared passions and emotions. Delightfully silly.
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Thesauradon January 23, 2014, 02:40:13 AM
I don't know if I want to look into using FATE Core like TO or wade into the eldritch bog of custom game mechanics, but I do know more or less what kind of gameplay I want from my system: the players will be working together to defeat singular, much more powerful enemies than them.
We're independently approaching the same mechanical concept. High five for Team overwhelming odds!

In addition, the players will die. Probably a lot. When they do they roll up new semi-random characters and continue with minimal penalty (You lose a certain amount of experience but not so much that you're useless to a veteran party depending on what 'tier' you're in) but they have to be careful not to experience an abundance of deaths or they will fail their assigned task/mission/operation as their master or whoever decides to avoid the sunken cost fallacy and just fires the survivors.
I would encourage group experience penalties. Turn it into a pool, so they don't have to immediately spend it. Say they've collectively gained 95 experience. As a group, they can collectively decide to spend 70 points to promote their planner, let's call him "Naleb", to the Monarch's right hand man. They split the remaining 25 points five ways and each buy 5 points of upgraded gear. Or maybe they take that 95 points and spend 15 on perfecting the Kobold-a-pault and use the other 80 to evolve their boss to his final form. Those adventurers are going to be surprised when they have to deal with the combined force of flying Kobolds and Mega-Cheney.

And if you use a pool, death penalties distribute along the entire group instead of the player who had a bad night. It represents the cost of having to integrate a new team member after cleaning the last one out of the shark tank.

How simple did you want the rules to be? Because I have a conflict resolution system sitting in my head that could handle the parts of the game players don't spend experience on. I will post that tomorrow and we can bash this new bashing system out!
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: geekyogrt January 23, 2014, 03:29:38 AM
Big flaws? Thoughts? Condemnations for stealing other people's ideas?

What you described instantly made me think of Riddle of Steel.  Very similar in structure and damage from what I recall (it has been a few years).

It was a nightmare to run the first couple of times we played, as the rules for tracking damage varied based on blunt vs. blades etc.  Once we picked it up, it was the most fun I've ever had gaming.  Player behavior completely changed with the complexity and the fact that you could die in one round of combat.  Or lose your arm and healing magic was not common. 

Combat happened as the last resort or when the players could leverage their character motivations for additional dice.

It would be worth taking a look at to see how they approached some actions.  I think the lite / free trial version that they put out is still floating around.  It is scaled back, however the core concepts are present.

Also, the comment about passing damage through layers totes brought memories of battletech and the hit bubbles.  Probably dating myself on that one.
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: clockworkjoe January 23, 2014, 05:45:27 AM
I've been looking for the Riddle of Steel for years now. The few copies I've seen online are way overpriced but if I ever find a decent priced copy, I'll run it for RPPR.
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Quiet side January 23, 2014, 11:02:10 AM
Ross, Riddle of Steel has been re-done as Blade of the Iron Throne out on DriveThru (Cheap too, $5.95). Haven't grabbed it yet, but my understanding is that it is a full evolution of the original Riddle rules.

Riddle of steel is some of the most fun I've had playing, but it is definitely a bit of a challenge to learn. I agree with the previous post though, once players grasp how the combat and motivation systems work it becomes surprisingly intuitive and fluid. Combat is brutal, but from listening to the Wild Talents and Eclipse phase campaigns the RPPR group should have no problems with that.
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Tadanori Oyama January 23, 2014, 06:25:40 PM
I tried a quick bare-bones "white room" playtest for my mechanic. Holy shit, I've created a horrifying monster.

So people are clear the scale is 10-7, success. 6-4, minor success. 3-1 failure.

Randy and Steve are two shirtless men in jeans. They are fighting with knives. Knives possess no special weapon characteristics and are a +0 weapon.

Randy arbitrarily goes first. He attacks Steve’s stomach (a vital area).

Steve rolls an 8 and defends by thrusting his stomach back and retreating. Steve attacks Randy’s extended right hand (a non-vital area).

Randy rolls a 2 and fails to defend so Steve’s attack lands true. Steve rolls 8 for damage. Randy’s skin, muscle, and bone are pierced by the attack, breaking the bones in his right hand. Randy drops his knife due to the damage to his hand. Randy will bleed for 9 after his next action (layers pierced squared).

Randy bleeds for 9 (91 left) and grabs his dropped knife in his left hand.

Steve presses his attack and attacks Randy’s left elbow. Randy rolls a 2 and fails to defend. Steve rolls a 4 for damage, piercing Randy’s skin and muscle but not the bone. This wound will bleed for 4. Randy may continue to use his left arm.

Randy bleeds for 13 (9+4) (78 left) Randy tries to end the fight quickly and strikes for Steve’s heart. Steve rolls an 8 to defend and evades by ducking under the attack.

Steve, while ducked, slashes at Randy’s right thigh. Randy rolls a 9 and evades by quickly circling to his left (putting him on Randy’s right side).

Randy bleeds for 13 (65 left) Randy swings his left handed stab to try and hit Steve’s lung from behind. Steve rolls a 6 to defend and his able to deflect but not evade. He opts to turn and take the attack to his right upper arm. Randy rolls an 8 for damage piercing Steve’s skin, muscle and bone. Steve drops his knife. Steve’s wound will bleed for 9.

Steve bleeds for 9 (91 left). Steve turns and grabs his knife with his left hand, rising to a standing position.

Randy bleeds for 13 (52 left). Randy attacks the same wound on Steve’s right arm. Steve rolls a 1 to defend and isn’t quick enough to move. Randy rolls an 8 for damage by passing the skin and muscle to pierce bone, muscle and skin, penetrating Steve’s entire right arm. Steve’s wound is ‘upgraded’; he will bleed for 25.

Steve bleeds for 25 (66 left). Steve attacks Randy’s head. Randy rolls a 4 to defend, deflecting the attack slightly, choosing to take the attack on his right shoulder. Steve rolls a 4 on damage, piercing skin and muscle. Randy will bleed for 4.

Randy bleeds for 17 (9+4+4)(35 left). He is under 50% blood and now takes a -1 to all rolls. Randy doesn’t attack and compresses his right hand with his knee to try and slow the bleeding. He rolls a 5 -1 for a 4, minor success. He reduces the degree by 1 (lowering bleed from 9 to 4).

Steve bleeds for 25 (41 left). Steve cannot stop his wound as he lacks anything to stop the bleeding and can’t compress the site without dropping his knife. He goes for Randy’s right shoulder. Randy gets a 7-1 for a 6, a high deflection. He uses his left hand to push the stab down into his right upper arm. Steve rolls 5-1 for 4 damage, piercing skin and muscle.

Randy bleeds for 16 (19 left). He is now under 25 and takes another -1 (-2 total). Hoping to outlast the hemorrhaging Steve he drops his knife and grabs his newest wound. He rolls a 7-2 for a 5. Another minor success; the wound is decreased a degree.

Steve bleeds for 25 (16 left). Lightheaded, Steve relents and drops his knife, attempting to put pressure on his arm. He rolls an 8-2 for a 6, minor success. The wound is reduced by 1 degree.

Randy bleeds for 13 (6 left). Randy tries to stop his shoulder. He rolls a 1 with a penalty and critically fails, reopening his upper arm wound as a struggles.

Steve bleeds for 16 (0 left). Steve collapses to the ground.

Randy bleeds for 16 (0 left). Randy also collapses to the ground.

Somebody in the crowd bet that Randy would win but also be dead. That person is now very happy.

So, yeah, that more or less does the basic things that I want. Let's not the cut that kills you, it's the bleeding.
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Cthuluzord January 23, 2014, 07:58:59 PM
Not to distract from this great games conversation, but there's a new episode of RPPR GDW up.

http://slangdesign.com/rppr/2014/01/game-designer-workshop/game-designer-workshop-episode-3-game-mechanics/

The bleeding out mechanics seem interesting. It's rare for a game to get stuff like that right and still be fun. It seems you're on the same track.

As far as the Slingstone idea goes, you have my blessing. I will say that, if it were me, I'd look into using the GUMSHOE OGL. Night's Black Agent does mismatched combat really well (Vampires are basically superheroes), and already has good mechanics for investigation and social engineering. I'd reskin those for a supers game and focus my energies on the setting.
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Tadanori Oyama January 24, 2014, 12:19:09 PM
The bleeding out mechanics seem interesting. It's rare for a game to get stuff like that right and still be fun. It seems you're on the same track.

I think it's fun; I'm not the one bleeding to death. Hmm, back to the drawing board then. "Realistic" damage systems seem to have the problem of aggravating players when they restrict them or punish them for poor choices or for simple bad luck. I'm going for drama and danger but I understand that it needs to have entertainment value.

Actually, if you took the SAN system in Call of Cthulhu and converted it into a "blood meter" based on CON then you could do blood lost during fights or injuries sustained while fleeing monsters with temporary insanities being replaced by hallucinations and such. That might be fun. Totally unrelated to everything else, just something that passed through my head.


Enjoyed this episode of the podcast; exciting to see the sphere of imagaination and research dust collecting into a tighter form until the gravitational force of writing will ignites the condensed nebula into a blazing new RPG star.

I'm interested in the role of the player characters as "temporary PCs" in that they want to go off and become something else. Players like to have labels for things and 'Takers' is a pretty good one. You should consider having other names for different 'social classes' of Takers. While the PCs are aiming to be entirely temporary, there are probably NPC Takers who have come to see the job as their new way of life, especially NPCs who may have committed atrocities. Having something to call these individuals (i.e. Lifers, Career Men, Management, etc...) to distingish them from 'normal' Takers would be a useful language tool for GMs and players.
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Kamen January 24, 2014, 04:10:00 PM
So, Tadanori Oyama's bleed out system has reminded me of a set of alternative, fan-made critical hit tables for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2nd ed. which, anybody here who has played that or the more recent Fantasy Flight 40k games knows can be ridiculously brutal. The neat things about these is that they're made by a pair of physicians and thus even more cringe worthy. Give 'em a look at: http://www.windsofchaos.com/?page_id=19. They might provide some inspiration.
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Tadanori Oyama January 24, 2014, 05:43:49 PM
So, Tadanori Oyama's bleed out system has reminded me of a set of alternative, fan-made critical hit tables for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2nd ed. ...

Please, Tadanori Oyama is my father. Call me Tad. Glad people go some nostalgia out of my bleeding rules but it's time I get on track with the actual game I want to do instead of just posting mechanics I think of.

Inspired by Thesauradon I've decided to post a listing of goals and such for my game idea. Be gentle, internet, I am a delicate flower:


Inspiration
Epic fantasy stories: Gilgamesh, The Journey West, and Conan among others.
Ross talking about self-motivated individuals in the Base Raider planning stages.

Concept
Tomorrow morning, while you make coffee and curse the rising sun, an impossibly massive figure, filling the sky with golden light, appears with the first light of day and speaks words understood by every individual the world over: “The Earth’s 3,000 year prohibition against magic is now completed. Do not let it happen again.” And with that, the figure vanishes, leaving only drifting lines of golden light in the morning sky.

This is modern day fantasy. Magic is back. Anyone who has the will to go out and seize it can get anything they want.

Thematic Goals
People seize power. Magic and strength of will do not fall upon individuals by chance. The power must be found and taken. Become a Tolkienian wizard. Become a Harry Potter wizard. Hell, be a Marvel comics wizard. Magic is what you make it.

Magic is a force of will and obeys intent. Nothing magic exists without someone having made it.

Your magic cannot change you unless you want it to. Want to be an elf? Done. Orc? Easy. Vampire? All it takes is the force of will to change your core being. Create creatures of myth or things never dreamed of. Cure disease. Trap souls in private hells. Magic knows no morality.

Design Goals
Change the world is different ways each time the game is played.

Players design their own origin quest and play it out, as individuals or as a party.

Allow for large scale combat with focus on timing and allocating resources.

Players design their own goals and the road marks they must pass along the way or randomly create blockages in their path.

Present a grand mystery that can either be the focus of a campaign or completely ignored (why was magic taken in the first place? Who took it?)

System
As I mentioned before I’m currently in a struggle between using modified Fate CORE or creating my own system for this.

Fate CORE can easily meet most of my design needs but I would need to add more mechanics to cover others. So, partly original or entirely?

Conclusion & Personal Conviction
I love modern fantasy. Present day with magical abilities and off the wall possibility. It’s my steampunk. I want this game to be a modern-fantasy in the classical sense of the fantasy genre: strange impossible journeys but through a modern world.

: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Claive January 24, 2014, 06:27:23 PM
Hey Tad,

Your ideas remind me of Hero Quests ((note: the activity in the game rather than the game itself) I.E. http://www.nikkeffingham.com/runequest/hnotes.htm )

If done in modified fate, someone (me) is going to have "Mythic (Final Fantasy) Blue Mage" as an aspect...

Edit: In retrospect that is a horrible aspect.
: Re: RPPR Gamedesign Workshop - To grog or not to grog.
: Jae. April 29, 2014, 03:56:22 AM
Hello, I made a post over in "Introductions" but GDW is the thing that made me finally post after years so I thought "Damnit, just get on with it!" and decided to put the idea out there beyond my little circle.

I've strong-armed my sister who works in art direction and general computer graphic thingamabobs into doing a bit of a NaNoWriMo in Game Design. Except, our deadline is Sept. 1st. I started work March 10th.

I've stolen the same format Mr. Tad used to try and condense things without mechanics.

Inspiration
"Fantastic" Media: Princess Mononoke, Nausicaa: Valley Of The Wind, Spirited Away (Pretty much everything Miyazaki).
Video Games: Shadow Of The Colossus, Ico, & Majora's Mask
Bits of: Neil Gaiman, Tim Powers, Patrick Rothfuss
TTRPGs: Annalise, Polaris, 3:16 Carnage Amongst The Stars, Apocalypse World, Fate, Misspent Youth.

The Pitch
You are Chosen. You are young and impressionable. You are inextricably tied to Forces that shape destiny and reality. This relationship with things you cannot understand marks you to undertake the Quest. You and those like you are to encounter the Beasts. You are the only ones who can, the only ones who meet the fantastic head on. You can sink yourself into the overwhelming ocean that is the Force that branded you and ask for power. Ask for the gifts you need to survive another encounter, to twist and bend the laws of the universe, but every time you come back, there is a little less of you and a little more of It, until maybe none of you comes back at all.

Concept
No setting. Instead, there are a "Things That Are Always True". It's a collaborative game, where the first session is character and world creation. A brief outline of these things are:

The World

The Chosen

Thematic Goals
I think it was Caleb that said that the goal of his game was in some ways "to rescue the dungeon crawl from DnD". I could be wrong, but whoever it was, it got me to understand what it is that I wanted my game to really focus on. The game is about rescuing the Hero's Journey from, well, the Hero's Journey.

I want to skip loot, it's not interesting. I want to mostly skip the fights with mooks, it's not interesting. I want to mostly fast forward the trudge down the road to the dragon's den. I want to get to the Dragon. In between there, the only thing that is important is whether a Scene matters enough to discover something about your character or change them. It's about whether facing things that no one understands, is willing to face, or sometimes even believes in is worth it, and whether you are willing to lose control over your identity to overcome them.

Thematically, the game is a Bildungsroman. Secretly, it's about being a teenager and growing up. This amounts to the same thing, but people are likely not to notice the latter.

Design Goals

Enforce the sense that your party, and in turn, only other Chosen like you can be relied on and trusted to understand you. Through Bond Scenes, Flashbacks, etc.

Breathe life into "Myth Creation" where it is fun to take turns crafting and inserting surreal and fantastic elements into a mundane world.

Make the game tell the same thematic story in every world people can come up with.
       I've attempted so far playstests with a "Where The Wild Things Are" type of setting, a Tribal Hero's Journey a la Zelda and Shadow of the Colossus, and a Victorian Urban Fantasy with Demons & Angels with some success.

Make people care about their characters enough that they are interested in developing them from "Guy with Sword" like every Game Protagonist ever to find out why they would do this and who they would do this for.

Make players okay with not necessarily character death, but losing control of their character (mechanically the same thing) so long as the closure to the character's story is satisfying.

System

I'm not making a system, because I'm not a masochist (mostly just cowardly) and because mechanics make my head hurt. My system is a version of Fate Accelerated Edition + Mechanics Structures The Narrative via Apocalypse World with my own bits of system thrown in to handle tapping into Forces, generating Beasts and Myths, and the Journey.

Conclusion & Personal Conviction
This is a focused game, there is no place for someone who wants to play a Skyrim-type Sandbox. Like in Polaris, it is very likely that your character will lose control or die unrecognized and with little fanfare. Make that okay, make it that if they survive and walk into the sunset at the end of the game that their story is told. Make encounters with the Beasts about characters. Make the party not just a group that stays together, but one that wants to.

Now that I've dipped my toes in, there's no reason to not make this an actual thing. I'll be coming back and giving my thoughts on other people's ideas (if that's okay), and will try my best with mechanics (mostly on the side of LESS MATH!). From reading the thread, everyone's really thoughtful so I look forward to getting your ideas as well.