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General Category => RPGs => Topic started by: Gorkamorka on September 25, 2015, 04:24:12 AM

Title: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Gorkamorka on September 25, 2015, 04:24:12 AM
Hi.

Im lacking a group and time at the moment so I  haven't been apart of the playtest.  But I have been keeping an eye on it though the podcast and the forum.  Now, I just had an idea, and I was hoping the people who have played the game can answer me.

The question:  Can this system be easily hacked to play cyberpunk?

It sounds like it can.  It sounds like it would make a great system for cyberpunk gaming. Cyberpunk has so many of the same elements as Red Market. 
- The apocalypse happened, but the game is not about that at it's core.  The zombies took over VS the Corporations took over is not a great leap in game mechanics. The only thing that changes is the opposition.  You drop the infection mechanic and add cyber, but cyber stuff is just another tool that require maintenance and you the game already has rules for shooting non infected.
- The game revolves around poor, but competent people, doing dodgy jobs for doggy clients. While trying to make enough money to retire. Doing these jobs saps at your humanity as you get crushed by capitalism.

Would it work?  Does it fit?  What am I missing?

What do you think?

P.S.  I know the game is not out, so questions about hacking it are a bit premature, but that is just how my brain works.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: trinite on September 25, 2015, 10:55:24 AM
Oh, I think that would work perfectly. As Caleb has said, the zombies are basically just an excuse to play desperate impoverished hustlers without it being exploitative of real-world poverty. You could easily replace them with an entirely different genre excuse.

Heck, now you've got me thinking:

Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Gorkamorka on September 25, 2015, 11:11:24 AM
Does the system allow you to "fight the man" or would that have to be an added feature to the Cyberpunk game? 

Is there a mechanic for how much threat you are to the people in power? Or would I have to borrow "Heat" from Nights Black Agents.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: trinite on September 25, 2015, 01:34:44 PM
Does the system allow you to "fight the man" or would that have to be an added feature to the Cyberpunk game? 

Is there a mechanic for how much threat you are to the people in power? Or would I have to borrow "Heat" from Nights Black Agents.

There isn't a mechanic like that now (I think the game presumes that the PCs will never be a big enough deal for that to matter), but I think it would be easy to add. In keeping with the overall mechanics of the game, I think it would include some sort of extra upkeep cost for staying off the radar, and failing to pay it off would lead to a rising "heat" level. So kind of like a Relationship, but in reverse: pay bounty to not attract the attention of hostile forces.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Gorkamorka on September 25, 2015, 03:17:42 PM
Yeah it's defiantly a doable idea.

What else could we make RM do and what would one have to add?
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Twisting H on September 27, 2015, 11:17:08 PM
Great idea for a thread.  Correlate all the Red Market hack stray thoughts.

I posted this previously

Quote
So that made me reflect on Red Markets, and it really is economic horror. The system works perfectly well for a pure gritty survival game without the dead.

Then I was thinking about the Laird Barron story about the Iditarod, Arctic expeditions in gaming (http://recklessdice.com/2015/04/live-session-beyond-the-mountains-of-madness-part-1/ (http://recklessdice.com/2015/04/live-session-beyond-the-mountains-of-madness-part-1/)) and The Revenant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRfj1VCg16Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRfj1VCg16Y)

As written in the beta, Red Markets expects a cycle of risking life and limb with varying (usually diminishing) rewards. But I think the system as written could apply and apply well to one shot survival situations where instead of the crushing attrition of economic horror, there is a "happy" ending if the player survives to the end.  The Red Market's rules seem to me to deliver a more gritty slant on survival than any other system in gaming I can think of (GURPS, etc.). 

In a survival situation like this where you have multiple players or a lone survivor. Tapping a Dependent to heal humanity could mean a flashback in the middle of a crisis to a more domestic time, or you making the Dependent Needy, Strained, or Broken means you weakened the bond for additional supplies in the field (you ignored your wife's calls to work overtime to buy more supplies/train harder, etc.).

Then I was thinking of The Call of the Wild and Call of Catthulhu. And I got the weird idea, could the Red Market's rules as written work for playing a sled dog in the Iditarod? Your bonds/Dependents are with other dogs and the human drivers? I don't know just an amusing fancy I had.



The question:  Can this system be easily hacked to play cyberpunk?

It sounds like it can.  It sounds like it would make a great system for cyberpunk gaming. Cyberpunk has so many of the same elements as Red Market. 
- The apocalypse happened, but the game is not about that at it's core.  The zombies took over VS the Corporations took over is not a great leap in game mechanics. The only thing that changes is the opposition.  You drop the infection mechanic and add cyber, but cyber stuff is just another tool that require maintenance and you the game already has rules for shooting non infected.
- The game revolves around poor, but competent people, doing dodgy jobs for doggy clients. While trying to make enough money to retire. Doing these jobs saps at your humanity as you get crushed by capitalism.


Never thought about cyberpunk for Red Markets but yes, yes I do think it works, and works well.

My first thought was the latest Shadowrun video game by Hairbrained Schemes, Shadowrun: Hong Kong.  In Hong Kong, the Kowloon Walled City is rebuilt and it turns into a massive slum again.  I could see the Red Markets mechanics working in this setting if players are young shadowrunners who grew up in the slum and are trying to take increasingly dangerous jobs to earn enough nuyen to buy them and their families a place to live outside the slum.  A point of economic tension could be that every bounty spent on upgrading their gear is one less they have to put towards their family/loved one's maintenance.  Want that novahot Fairlight Excalibur cyberdeck so you can reduce the damage to your body when you run into black ICE? Little Timmy might have to go without food for a month.   Maybe the players have to pay the Triads protection money on a monthly basis.

PS: Ross if you have the time I suggest you play this because the writing is good and touches on some themes possibly useful for Ruin.  Est 10-20 hours or so.

Second thought is planned obsolescence.

Imagine a Gibsonian cyberpunk world everyone has cyberware. In fact you need cyberware to be competitive for the quickly vanishing jobs pool as more jobs are increasingly automated by AI exploding in complexity driven by the singularity curve.

A good backround for this would be the AMC tv show Humans (http://www.amc.com/shows/humans (http://www.amc.com/shows/humans)) where this very issue is addressed. A decent drama but very influenced by BBC direction.

If you remember Deus Ex: Human Revolutions, there was a Taiwanese MBA woman who needed money for cybernetic pheromone upgrades in order to get a job to feed her family so she got in debt to the Triads or something.  The point was this theme was addressed in that game as well, and very effectively.

So in a planned obsolescence cyberpunk game, I could see the economic horror is less from your dependents depending on you to take increasingly risky jobs to support them; instead the horror is more personal and creeps over the line into body horror.  Cyberware is designed to degrade or every year it becomes increasingly difficult to find a competent doctor to remove last year's model because they have all updated their medical equipment for the newest tech.  You need money to upgrade the cyberware in your body so that you can keep it up to do date with the singularity driven arms race that is ever increasing security complexity that the the next job will certainly entail/and maintain your aging cyberware to keep it from breaking down in your own body! 

I really need to read Neuromancer again and there was another good one. All of Tomorrow's parties I think.


Does the system allow you to "fight the man" or would that have to be an added feature to the Cyberpunk game? 

Is there a mechanic for how much threat you are to the people in power? Or would I have to borrow "Heat" from Nights Black Agents.

Huh. Real neat idea!

Oh, I think that would work perfectly. As Caleb has said, the zombies are basically just an excuse to play desperate impoverished hustlers without it being exploitative of real-world poverty. You could easily replace them with an entirely different genre excuse.

Heck, now you've got me thinking:

  • Use the RM rules to play low-rep Scum in the Eclipse Phase setting, taking odd jobs for @-rep and paying upkeep just to maintain the right to use their possessions in a private-property-free scum swarm.
  • Use RM to play scrappy, magic-less rogues trying to get by in a typical D&D-esque high fantasy world where wizards own/ruin everything.
  • Use RM to play grittily realistic Medieval landless knights, going on "quests" for cash and reputation through the chaos of plague-stricken Europe.

These are really interesting ideas Trinite.

For the gritty realistic landless Medieval knight scenario I immediately thought of the "landkersnat" (sp I have no idea how to spell it and I can't find the word) the landless knights of Germany in the Middle ages.

I think this is the Osprey book that discusses it : https://ospreypublishing.com/german-medieval-armies-1000-1300-pb (https://ospreypublishing.com/german-medieval-armies-1000-1300-pb)

Alternately, the gritty Medieval world is overrun by vampires (as in a Vampire the Dark Ages post Gehenna situation) and players have to earn their keep for themselves and their loved ones who dwell within a vanishingly smaller number of cities that have walls strong enough to repulse the bloodcraving horde.  Sort of a Middle ages I am Legend situation.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: trinite on October 01, 2015, 05:57:05 PM
For the gritty realistic landless Medieval knight scenario I immediately thought of the "landkersnat" (sp I have no idea how to spell it and I can't find the word) the landless knights of Germany in the Middle ages.
Twisting H, I think you're talking about the Landsknechts, who over time became famous as groups of mercenaries. While Red Markets is built to handle groups on a much smaller scale than Medieval mercenary companies generally were, it could definitely be an interesting historical game to play a small band of landsknechts in some plague-ravaged Medieval backwater, doing odd jobs for local lords/villagers/bandits against other lords/villagers/bandits.

Man, now I'm contemplating how much fun it would be to write a full-on "Red Markets: The Dark Ages" supplement, laying out a full conversion of the rules. Maybe I should wait until the game gets published...
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: clockworkjoe on October 02, 2015, 02:16:10 AM
Eh, who cares about being mercenaries - I want to see a RM hack about medieval guilds and trade.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Gorkamorka on October 02, 2015, 04:19:15 AM
Eh, who cares about being mercenaries - I want to see a RM hack about medieval guilds and trade.

Hmm... Thiefs guild....  It would work to.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Alethea on October 02, 2015, 06:39:54 AM
a RM hack about medieval guilds and trade.

Complete with apprenticeship rules!

The enclave economy options would be a great deal more limited.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Jace911 on October 02, 2015, 12:01:07 PM
a RM hack about medieval guilds and trade.

Complete with apprenticeship rules!

The enclave economy options would be a great deal more limited.

Not necessarily, IIRC there was a fair degree of specialization even in the medieval era. You could have an enclave of hunters who trade furs, meats, and carved bone tools for iron weapons and herbal medicines.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Alethea on October 02, 2015, 05:39:58 PM
a RM hack about medieval guilds and trade.

Complete with apprenticeship rules!

The enclave economy options would be a great deal more limited.

Not necessarily, IIRC there was a fair degree of specialization even in the medieval era. You could have an enclave of hunters who trade furs, meats, and carved bone tools for iron weapons and herbal medicines.

Was thinking of Economy table: Feudalism vs. Collectivist vs. Theocracy vs. Odoist etc.
Feudalism and Theocracy would obviously still be viable options. Raiders/Thieves would use the Pirate economy descriptor, and probably some of the free/charter towns would use Barter, Tribalist or Collectivist.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Twisting H on October 02, 2015, 06:08:28 PM
Twisting H, I think you're talking about the Landsknechts

Exactly! Thank you Trinite.

Man, now I'm contemplating how much fun it would be to write a full-on "Red Markets: The Dark Ages" supplement, laying out a full conversion of the rules. Maybe I should wait until the game gets published...

Why not jot down a few notes while the idea is burning in your mind?


Eh, who cares about being mercenaries - I want to see a RM hack about medieval guilds and trade.

How would this work?  I'm not well versed in medieval guilds and trade and where the economic horror would be.  The only sparks that come to mind is playing a merchant caravan that say traveling along the Silk Road or whatever and barely breaking even.  Or a Dutch merchant ship where several parties have invested to share the risk and said parties are all on the same boat.  Just spitting random thoughts.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: clockworkjoe on October 02, 2015, 06:45:37 PM
not necessarily horror, but economic themed gaming - I think I mentioned this on the podcast but I read a book on medieval maps a while back. All those sea monsters you see? Commissioned by clients - maps were status symbols back in the day so a fancy map with dragons and shit was more expensive than a plain and practical map.  I have this idea where the PCs are mapmakers hired to make a fancy ass map for a duke but the duchess doesn't like spending all the money on fancy decorations for the castle so she puts in a clause in the contract where the PCs have to prove whatever monsters they draw on the map actually exist - so they have to go on expeditions to find the damn things.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: trinite on October 02, 2015, 08:53:48 PM
Twisting H, I think you're talking about the Landsknechts

Exactly! Thank you Trinite.

Man, now I'm contemplating how much fun it would be to write a full-on "Red Markets: The Dark Ages" supplement, laying out a full conversion of the rules. Maybe I should wait until the game gets published...

Why not jot down a few notes while the idea is burning in your mind?


Eh, who cares about being mercenaries - I want to see a RM hack about medieval guilds and trade.

How would this work?  I'm not well versed in medieval guilds and trade and where the economic horror would be.  The only sparks that come to mind is playing a merchant caravan that say traveling along the Silk Road or whatever and barely breaking even.  Or a Dutch merchant ship where several parties have invested to share the risk and said parties are all on the same boat.  Just spitting random thoughts.

Well, whatever the flavor of Medieval we'd want to play, we'd need to do some flavorful revision of the Skill list. Shoot becomes Archery, Drive becomes Riding, Meme becomes Philosophy, and there's a new INT skill called Reading.

I'd like to replace Detachment, Trauma, and Stress with period-appropriate terms for psychological damage -maybe something like Despair, Terror, and Exhaustion. Or maybe go whole-hog historical, and have meters for the four Humors that go up and down.

I think we could add on a new category of Relationship called Servants, who demand upkeep like Dependents but provide practical services rather than emotional support. Some gear, like plate armor or horse armor, would require Servants as a part of Upkeep. I'd still keep Dependents and References as well.

I'd also add a stat called Fame or Honour which would be necessary for most retirement plans, and could only be earned by extremely public acts of bravery or piety. Retirement would most likely entail impressing a liege lord enough that he grants you land, or marrying into a landed family, or endowing a monastery with enough wealth (and/or salvaged relics) that they let you retire there as a monk.

For the closest historical Medieval analogue to the Red Markets setting, I'd probably go with Germany in 1350, at the height of the Black Death. The closest analogues to Latent and Immune status would probably be Leprous -- and maybe Jewish.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Kamen on October 12, 2015, 02:47:57 PM
Playing a lot of Metal Gear Solid V has me thinking of a Diamond Dogs/Militaires Sans Frontières style hack. You'd basically be the deployment teams that Big Boss sends on missions, getting money to help build Mother Base and rise in rank. That's like all I've got at the moment.

Also being the adventuring trader is one of my favorite concepts, I'd play the crap out of a Medieval trading RM hack.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Twisting H on October 13, 2015, 12:22:16 AM
I've been waiting for an excuse to post this

(http://i.imgur.com/hUaR3Mo.gif)
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Redroverone on October 23, 2015, 07:09:03 AM
Three words: Louis L'Amour westerns.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Adam_Autist on November 06, 2015, 09:06:23 AM
I have a list of ideas I have come up with:

Something like District 9. Because I got a copy of City of Remnants the board game and it was the first thingI thought of when RM was announced.

second Idea was based on BPRD Hell on Earth and the Cthulhu Apocalypse book for Trail... I just love the idea that the Lovecraftian Apocalypse has been and gone and humanity just about held on by the skin of our teeth. All the big hitters would be focused on more important stuff and the players would be the people hired to do all the grunt work. Clearing out drowned basements of Deep Ones and recovering whatever might be useful down there.

Third idea was a cyberpunkish This War of Mine. You are people trapped in a warzone caught between PMCs etc.Your goal would be to get enough resources to get to safety.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Alethea on November 06, 2015, 06:07:51 PM
a cyberpunkish This War of Mine. You are people trapped in a warzone caught between PMCs etc.Your goal would be to get enough resources to get to safety.

I'd play.

Actually, I'd play all three ideas but that's the one I'd be most excited to play. I think RM and This War of Mine would mesh well together.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: trinite on November 23, 2015, 03:49:31 PM
Here's something I thought of while working on "Red Markets: Black Death" (working title) that might make an interesting change to infection rolls: Have the victim's player roll the Black die, and the Market roll the Red die. The player will have a semi-informed guess about how likely they are to have been infected, but no certain knowledge either way. Seems to me that this could simulate the details of the infectious incident, and reflect the fact that the victim would likely have some sense of how badly they had been got (Black 1: bad bite near a major blood vessel; Black 9: got some spit on me, but nothing seems to have broken the skin). It could really play up the unique horror of the situation, and lead to some cool roleplaying as the victim tries to convince their allies one way or the other. For extra pizzazz, maybe the victim's player isn't allowed to tell the other players the number that they rolled, only a description of their injuries.

Anyway, that's pretty hardcore co-designer-style feedback, so take it or leave it, Caleb. :)
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: trinite on December 16, 2015, 03:15:58 PM
I've got like 8 library books about the Black Death right now, gonna read some over Christmas. I kinda wanna make this "Red Markets: Black Death" thing happen. :)
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Twisting H on December 17, 2015, 03:51:17 AM
I've got like 8 library books about the Black Death right now, gonna read some over Christmas. I kinda wanna make this "Red Markets: Black Death" thing happen. :)

Cool. Even if you don't come up with perfect finished and polished product a first draft of your thoughts and a bibliography of the Black Death books may inspire someone else or be excellent idea fuel for another's project.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Adam_Autist on December 17, 2015, 06:30:19 AM
Red Death for short?
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Gorkamorka on December 17, 2015, 10:42:16 AM
Red Death for short?
Death Market ?

Read Death Market?

"Bring out your dead !", and sell them ?

:-)
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Gorkamorka on February 08, 2016, 05:29:38 PM
I just finished listening to the first two episodes of the Brutalists. 
I also just read a pirate book for one of my young once.  "The Pirate Crunhcer"

Now all of a sudden I just want to run RM as a Caribian pirate game.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: trinite on February 08, 2016, 05:37:16 PM
I just finished listening to the first two episodes of the Brutalists. 
I also just read a pirate book for one of my young once.  "The Pirate Crunhcer"

Now all of a sudden I just want to run RM as a Caribian pirate game.

Yeeeessssss.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Review Cultist on February 18, 2016, 12:38:41 AM
Not entirely sure how much work would be involved or if it would be worth it, but what about using the system for a Stone Age period campaign? Based on my recent discovery of the genre of "Stonepunk" (they will slap -punk on anything) and what Glancy had talk about the Obsidian industry in prehistory.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: clockworkjoe on February 18, 2016, 03:00:24 AM
Not entirely sure how much work would be involved or if it would be worth it, but what about using the system for a Stone Age period campaign? Based on my recent discovery of the genre of "Stonepunk" (they will slap -punk on anything) and what Glancy had talk about the Obsidian industry in prehistory.

Needs currency, not just bartering, but I guess you could fake it - history of money is kind of vague https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_money#Emergence_of_money
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Tadanori Oyama on February 18, 2016, 11:03:56 AM
Nah man, I watched The Flintstones. They use clams as currency in the stone age.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: constructacon on February 19, 2016, 03:40:39 AM
is it just me or did anyone else think about fallout when looking at hacking RM
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Tadanori Oyama on February 19, 2016, 11:01:08 AM
That would work pretty easily actually. They have a universal currency for the wastelands and you can do small modifications to the casualty systems to represent large groups of monsters.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: trinite on February 19, 2016, 06:25:08 PM
Not entirely sure how much work would be involved or if it would be worth it, but what about using the system for a Stone Age period campaign? Based on my recent discovery of the genre of "Stonepunk" (they will slap -punk on anything) and what Glancy had talk about the Obsidian industry in prehistory.

Needs currency, not just bartering, but I guess you could fake it - history of money is kind of vague https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_money#Emergence_of_money

That's where the obsidian shards come in -- it's a currency and a weapon at the same time!
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Review Cultist on February 22, 2016, 07:37:24 PM
Not entirely sure how much work would be involved or if it would be worth it, but what about using the system for a Stone Age period campaign? Based on my recent discovery of the genre of "Stonepunk" (they will slap -punk on anything) and what Glancy had talk about the Obsidian industry in prehistory.

Needs currency, not just bartering, but I guess you could fake it - history of money is kind of vague https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_money#Emergence_of_money

That's where the obsidian shards come in -- it's a currency and a weapon at the same time!

That's what I was thinking, though I don't know what I'd call this obsidian shard currency?
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: trinite on February 23, 2016, 05:25:15 PM
Not entirely sure how much work would be involved or if it would be worth it, but what about using the system for a Stone Age period campaign? Based on my recent discovery of the genre of "Stonepunk" (they will slap -punk on anything) and what Glancy had talk about the Obsidian industry in prehistory.

Needs currency, not just bartering, but I guess you could fake it - history of money is kind of vague https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_money#Emergence_of_money

That's where the obsidian shards come in -- it's a currency and a weapon at the same time!

That's what I was thinking, though I don't know what I'd call this obsidian shard currency?

I'd just call it "knives".
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: The Lost Carol on February 23, 2016, 11:56:47 PM
Between how my players have been handling their final mission in the Beta Campaign and listening to the Drunk and Ugly's mini-campaign with the Leverage system, I think the Profit System could easily be used in a heist style game. All of the skills are pretty commiserate with the skills you'd need, and the d10x2 dice mechanics could work well. References and Dependents help flesh out the stuff outside the heist, and the system can let you go quiet or go live.

Just think, Ross: you could license the Profit System from Caleb and license the Payday IP from Overkill and make a Payday Role Playing Game  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Adam_Autist on February 24, 2016, 01:17:02 PM
I always thought they could do a Great Payday board game if you used the Descent / Imperial Assalt template.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Gorkamorka on June 08, 2016, 04:53:26 AM
I have been trying to figure out what sort of setting would allow for the profit system to be played in a world with classic DnD characters.  So a world where a mage can throw fireballs around and a priest can be a substitute Jesus and heal the sick in person.

Warriors, and Roges are not a problem, you can slot them right into the Profit system.  But I can't figure out a world where a magic user who break the laws of physics and a priests that can make miracles would ever be in the position of having to make their own retirement plans.

Any ideas?
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Adam_Autist on June 08, 2016, 06:54:40 AM
I think step one would be to go hard on the Spelll Components & rituals.

wizards have to have enough eye of newt and enough books to nuke their foes, clerics have to appease their patron deities with lavish rituals and or sacrifices, druids have to maintain plants and feed and look after the animalst hey use. Scorcerers are tricky but I imagine you could come up with a reason why they have to spend bank on not being torn apart by forces beyond their control.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Gorkamorka on June 08, 2016, 07:13:25 AM
I think step one would be to go hard on the Spelll Components & rituals.

wizards have to have enough eye of newt and enough books to nuke their foes, clerics have to appease their patron deities with lavish rituals and or sacrifices, druids have to maintain plants and feed and look after the animalst hey use. Scorcerers are tricky but I imagine you could come up with a reason why they have to spend bank on not being torn apart by forces beyond their control.

For how to mecanise it in game I agree with you a hundred %.

My problem is that anyone who is functionally portable artillery would never be cast out of society and have to bribe himself back in.  He is just to usefull for the people in power.  You could probably feed a whole village on the salary a single Mage could make in tha army.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: the doomed one on June 08, 2016, 10:28:31 PM
I think step one would be to go hard on the Spelll Components & rituals.

wizards have to have enough eye of newt and enough books to nuke their foes, clerics have to appease their patron deities with lavish rituals and or sacrifices, druids have to maintain plants and feed and look after the animalst hey use. Scorcerers are tricky but I imagine you could come up with a reason why they have to spend bank on not being torn apart by forces beyond their control.

For how to mecanise it in game I agree with you a hundred %.

My problem is that anyone who is functionally portable artillery would never be cast out of society and have to bribe himself back in.  He is just to usefull for the people in power.  You could probably feed a whole village on the salary a single Mage could make in tha army.

The people in power hates/distrusts magic, thus, the practice of it is made illegal. Something for which there is definitely precedent in fiction.

Obviously there would still be people who recognize the usefulness of magic, and are willing to hire mages. Their retirement plan is to get out of that particular kingdom/country/region, or something to that effect.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Adam_Autist on June 09, 2016, 06:06:28 AM
Take a leaf out of Forgotten Realms book and Red Markets and have a spell scar equivalent?
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Redroverone on June 10, 2016, 01:35:04 PM

I'd just call it "knives".

There's plenty of evidence for obsidian trading back in 7000 BC or so.

http://history-world.org/firsttowns.htm (http://history-world.org/firsttowns.htm)

Quote
When Jericho was rebuilt in later centuries, the wall reached a height of
nearly 15 feet, and the fortifications included a stone tower at least 25 feet
high. The area covered by the town increased. Round houses gave way to
rectangular ones, entered through larger and more elaborately decorated wooden
doorways. Houses were built of improved bricks, were provided with plaster
hearths and stone mills for grinding grain, and were furnished with storage
baskets and straw mats. In addition, small buildings that were used as
religious shrines were found in the later stages of the city's history.
 
     Though the economy of Jericho was based primarily upon the farming of
wheat and barley, there is considerable evidence of reliance on both hunting
and trade. Domesticated goats provided meat and milk, while gazelles and
various marsh birds were hunted for their flesh, hides, and feathers. The town
was close to large supplies of salt, sulfur, and pitch. These materials, which
were in great demand in this era, were traded for obsidian - dark, glasslike
volcanic rock - semiprecious stones from Anatolia, turquoise from the Sinai,
and cowrie shells from the Red Sea.
 
     The ruins excavated at Jericho indicate that the city was governed by a
distinct and quite powerful ruling group, which was probably allied to the
keepers of the shrine centers. There probably were specialized artisans and a
small merchant class. In addition to the fertility figurines and animal
carvings found at many other sites, the inhabitants of Jericho sculpted
life-sized, highly naturalistic human figures and heads. These sculptures,
which may have been used in ancestor cults, give us vivid impressions of the
physical features of the people who enjoyed the wealth and security of
Jericho.
 

If Jericho's not an Enclave at that time, I don't know what is.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: sinanju on June 10, 2016, 04:44:16 PM
I think step one would be to go hard on the Spelll Components & rituals.

wizards have to have enough eye of newt and enough books to nuke their foes, clerics have to appease their patron deities with lavish rituals and or sacrifices, druids have to maintain plants and feed and look after the animalst hey use. Scorcerers are tricky but I imagine you could come up with a reason why they have to spend bank on not being torn apart by forces beyond their control.

...and if you do it right, you can really step hard on the mages' humanity tests. For instance, in a game I played in many years ago, we had a list of potions one could brew, with the primary ingredient listed for each. Potions of blinding required...three blinded mice. Potions of fear required..the heart of a drowned cat. (If it was just a job, you a put noose on the end of a long stick and did it as neatly and quickly as possible. If you were sadistic, chainmail gloves and tub of water would do.) And so on.

"You're going to drown the cat to make a potion. Roll or take some trauma, you sadistic bastard."
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Twisting H on June 16, 2016, 05:11:31 AM
I have been trying to figure out what sort of setting would allow for the profit system to be played in a world with classic DnD characters.  So a world where a mage can throw fireballs around and a priest can be a substitute Jesus and heal the sick in person.

Warriors, and Roges are not a problem, you can slot them right into the Profit system.  But I can't figure out a world where a magic user who break the laws of physics and a priests that can make miracles would ever be in the position of having to make their own retirement plans.

Any ideas?

For Mages? Easy. Welcome to the AD&D Dark Sun magic system.

Dark Sun, what is : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Sun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Sun)

http://www.athas.org/ (http://www.athas.org/)

http://darksun.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Sun_Wiki (http://darksun.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Sun_Wiki) (mostly 4th ed which is not ideal)

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Dark_Sun (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Dark_Sun)

Wizards in Dark Sun (ie Defilers) : https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Canon:Dark_Sun#Classes (https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Canon:Dark_Sun#Classes)

Quote
Wizards

Arcane spellcasters draw their power from life itself. Most wizards draw their power from plants. There are two basic types of wizard:

Defilers, who draw their power quickly, killing plant life around them, and significantly sterilizing the soil those plants were in, rendering it impossible to grow new plants there for centuries. This defiling of the land is why the once healthy planet is mostly a desert. Very powerful Defilers are able to draw power from creatures as well. Powerful Defilers (such as Dragons) can kill people in this manner.

Preservers, who draw their power more carefully, enabling them to cast their spells without destroying plant life, but sacrificing spellcasting power. Very powerful Preservers are able to draw power from creatures as well. Powerful Preservers (such as Avangions) have this ability, but they will not seek to kill with it.
Most ordinary people on Athas don't know of the difference, and treat all Wizards as being Defilers, responsible for the destruction of Athas.

Sorcery is almost unheard of, though it has been noted in dragon-descended individuals. (Paizo version only)

The Veiled Alliance, an underground organization of preservers (though membership is not entirely limited to that class) with resistance cells in all city states and most major villages, is bent on the destruction of the defiling Sorcerer-Kings (low-level dragons themselves).

A handful of very rare (or mutated) Wizards can power their spells from other sources - the Sun, or the Cerulean Storm itself.


Priests

Quote
Priests[edit]
Unlike most D&D settings, there are no 'real' deities. It is also not possible for someone on Athas to become a deity because the spiritual conduits that allow them to draw power from their worshippers do not exist on Athas. However, people worship, and receive power from other things:

Elemental Clerics draw their power from elemental sources and frequently come into conflict with one another.
Paraelemental Clerics draw their power from the paraelements (Sun, Silt, Rain, and Magma). These priests are fewer in number than elemental Clerics and often have similar abilities as the two closest elements. (Imagine a spectrum, similar to colors, that goes: Fire-Sun-Air-Rain-Water-Silt-Earth-Magma-Fire-Sun-...).
Druids, who draw their power from Nature (or what's left of it) and are often the most vocal and violent opponents of Defilers.
Templars, who are granted their power by the Sorcerer-Kings themselves.

Enjoy
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Gorkamorka on June 19, 2016, 10:02:29 AM
I have been trying to figure out what sort of setting would allow for the profit system to be played in a world with classic DnD characters.  So a world where a mage can throw fireballs around and a priest can be a substitute Jesus and heal the sick in person.

Warriors, and Roges are not a problem, you can slot them right into the Profit system.  But I can't figure out a world where a magic user who break the laws of physics and a priests that can make miracles would ever be in the position of having to make their own retirement plans.

Any ideas?

For Mages? Easy. Welcome to the AD&D Dark Sun magic system.

Dark Sun, what is : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Sun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Sun)

http://www.athas.org/ (http://www.athas.org/)

http://darksun.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Sun_Wiki (http://darksun.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Sun_Wiki) (mostly 4th ed which is not ideal)

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Dark_Sun (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Dark_Sun)

Wizards in Dark Sun (ie Defilers) : https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Canon:Dark_Sun#Classes (https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Canon:Dark_Sun#Classes)

Quote
Wizards

Arcane spellcasters draw their power from life itself. Most wizards draw their power from plants. There are two basic types of wizard:

Defilers, who draw their power quickly, killing plant life around them, and significantly sterilizing the soil those plants were in, rendering it impossible to grow new plants there for centuries. This defiling of the land is why the once healthy planet is mostly a desert. Very powerful Defilers are able to draw power from creatures as well. Powerful Defilers (such as Dragons) can kill people in this manner.

Preservers, who draw their power more carefully, enabling them to cast their spells without destroying plant life, but sacrificing spellcasting power. Very powerful Preservers are able to draw power from creatures as well. Powerful Preservers (such as Avangions) have this ability, but they will not seek to kill with it.
Most ordinary people on Athas don't know of the difference, and treat all Wizards as being Defilers, responsible for the destruction of Athas.

Sorcery is almost unheard of, though it has been noted in dragon-descended individuals. (Paizo version only)

The Veiled Alliance, an underground organization of preservers (though membership is not entirely limited to that class) with resistance cells in all city states and most major villages, is bent on the destruction of the defiling Sorcerer-Kings (low-level dragons themselves).

A handful of very rare (or mutated) Wizards can power their spells from other sources - the Sun, or the Cerulean Storm itself.


Priests

Quote
Priests[edit]
Unlike most D&D settings, there are no 'real' deities. It is also not possible for someone on Athas to become a deity because the spiritual conduits that allow them to draw power from their worshippers do not exist on Athas. However, people worship, and receive power from other things:

Elemental Clerics draw their power from elemental sources and frequently come into conflict with one another.
Paraelemental Clerics draw their power from the paraelements (Sun, Silt, Rain, and Magma). These priests are fewer in number than elemental Clerics and often have similar abilities as the two closest elements. (Imagine a spectrum, similar to colors, that goes: Fire-Sun-Air-Rain-Water-Silt-Earth-Magma-Fire-Sun-...).
Druids, who draw their power from Nature (or what's left of it) and are often the most vocal and violent opponents of Defilers.
Templars, who are granted their power by the Sorcerer-Kings themselves.

Enjoy

Yeah.  Darksun was the solution I came to as well.  I ran it a bunch when it just came out and it fits well.  I might throw out a hack for RM darksun.  But I should probably finish my GURPS Dark Sun hack first.

BUT.  It's not classical DnD, not even close.  I still want to find a solution for doing classical DnD in RM.  The closest I have come is Underdark/Undermountain based campaign.  That is Adventurers in Waterdeep going into the Undermountain to gain their fortune or die trying.  It would work, but it's lacking the 'Us VS Them' that the Loss and Rescission provide.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Gorkamorka on June 19, 2016, 10:31:05 AM
Ok I have been giving Cyberpunk/Shadowrun some brain time.

Here is a thought I came to.

Cyberpunk needs a HEAT mechanic.  As in how much the AUTHORITY is trying to get you. 
My solution to this is the following.  Classical Red Markets has 3 types of mental stress.  Detachment/Stress/Trauma. 

HEAT would be one more.  But in stead of Testing against 'Self-Control' it would test against a new skill:  'Trade-Craft'

Trade-Craft would allow you to do illegal things in such a way that you are harder to identify.  You shoot some one in public, but make sure you are wearing clothes that disguise your features, hight and other identifying features.  As well as knowing how to avoid cameras and such.  But if you do some really dodgy or public stuff you get HEAT anyway.  You just get less if you make the roll.

You then have to pay hackers and crooked authority figures bounty to heal your HEAT between sessions.  Get them to loose camera images or cancel APBs
Crack/Crumble/Break would then be things that can not to me made to disappear.  A Crack would put you on the watched list.  A Crumble would put you a warrant on your ass and a Break is a shoot on site with a price on your head.

What do you think.  Workable?


On a side note.  In classical cyberpunk more and more cyber-ware would grate down your detachment.  Because the more more metal you become the less you care about the meatbags and finally you sub come to cyberpsychoses and go stabby stabby on everyone.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Adam_Autist on June 19, 2016, 04:26:52 PM
I was thinking of something similar for an espionage style version for maintaining your cover where the player would gain benefits from maintaining their cover and then they would choose if they were willing to spend/ break it to create an immediate effect/ go towards their values.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Twisting H on June 20, 2016, 12:35:24 PM
I was thinking of something similar for an espionage style version for maintaining your cover where the player would gain benefits from maintaining their cover and then they would choose if they were willing to spend/ break it to create an immediate effect/ go towards their values.

I don't recall exactly, but the new World of Darkness, Demon: The Descent has a mechanism for exactly this.

Granted in Demon I think the "going loud" option allows the player to use unworldly powers and all angels immediately know where they are and I think a strike team is released by the God Machine.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Adam_Autist on June 20, 2016, 05:28:13 PM
To be fair I was just ripping off Night's Black Agents anyway  :)
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: trinite on June 20, 2016, 06:43:52 PM
Those sound like great ideas, for both the cyberpunk and espionage variations. I particularly like having it as a spendable resource, like the Roach can apparently do in Red Markets now.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: RadioactiveBeer on June 20, 2016, 10:18:53 PM
Alright, so here's my take on a Red Markets/Profit setting hack/variant. The idea is to channel the feeling of life under oppressive regimes like North Korea, use resource scarcity through rationing and to inject nerd tropes through time travel.

The State arose following the glorious Revolution, eclipsing all resistance of the ideologically backward and counter-revolutionary, and merging all previous nations into a single, global mega-state under a planned economy, all until the loving gaze of the loving figurehead, the Leader. All citizens of the State are equal, all economic activity is planned and executed meticulously by the fine men and women of the Ministry of Resource Allocation. One world, one system, one economy, one people, one ideology. Utopia has been achieved. All citizens of the State know this.

To suggest otherwise is not done. Or rather, those who do it are rarely heard from for much longer. Someone else is found to be living in their apartment; their spouse is found to have been married to another person. The State is pernicious and omnipresent, its presence reaching into every aspect of your life.

And yet, though none would publicly declare it, the resources each citizen receives from the Ministry are not enough for their needs. Because what you say you need is different from the Ministry says you need. And where there is need, there is opportunity and there is profit. There is a black market that will provide you with these things. The question is how to earn it.

Everyone has memories of the world before the Revolution, before the markets were controlled, certain goods and services were outlawed. Everyone has lost something to the ever-present march of Progress. Everyone was promised a utopia that only partially manifested. Everyone had someone they loved go up against the wall when the Revolution twisted and suddenly they were counter. The past is fertile ground, full of things that people want and need. This is where you dive, through illegal and tightly-regulated technology. You reach into the Revolution to retrieve lost things, to pull contraband from the past into the present; you secure local time-loops so a bereaved lover can relive the last night they spent in their paramour's arms; you give the counter-revolutionaries a glimmer of hope by providing them with proof that things can be/were/will be different, better. But you must do so secretly, because time travel is an illegal technology - why, the State asks, would you want to look at the past when Utopia is today? To suggest that this is no so is sedition.

Allocation: At the start of the game, the MRA gives you what it tells you that you need, that you deserve. This is your ration book, essentially. This is how much you have to live on for the session and also how much you must be seen to have; if your neighbour sees you suddenly bringing home armfuls of expensive whiskey, they'll mention it to someone who'll mention it to the Ministry. Naturally, it is not enough. You have a need that the Ministry will not - cannot - provide.

The Market: Commerce is illegal under State law, but most citizens dabble in the black market to make up the gaps in what the MRA provides. This is where you go to meet the needs the MRA does not meet, and this is your "enclave". It might be as small as the room above a bookshop, or a covert speakeasy in a cellar, or perhaps it is an extensive network of sewer tunnels. This is where people sell veal from cellar-reared calves, bathtub whisky, hand-drawn pornography. And this is where Divers ply their trade. Market is one of the variables of a job - it represents the raw value (monetary or emotional) of what is being dealt with; saving a wedding ring from being cremated in one of the mass graves of the Revolution, stealing cargo of a product no longer manufactured as the State deems it decadent.

The Dive: You have a rare, valuable talent - the ability to take jaunts back in time. So far the longest unassisted Dive has gone for one day  before the Diver "rubber-banded" back to the present day. At the Market, Divers operate crews that use time machines to assist their natural talents to allow for longer dives, to bring larger things back with them, to bring others back with them. This is where you earn your money.

The Risks: Because of course it can't be that simple. Diving is not an easy task. If nothing else, the past is a dangerous place; the Revolution was a shooting war (several, really) where many strange weapons were deployed, where many things not found in the State roamed and roared and spewed fire across the loyal soldiers of the Cause. What's more, there are risks inherent in changing the past; much was lost in the Revolution, so pilfering boxes of ammunition for a depot moments before the artillery shell hits causes little change, but saving the life of a martyr will.. draw attention. Mankind is not the only thing to have evolved the ability to move in four dimensions; the bravest and most ambitious Divers soon find themselves.. hounded. In-game, Ripple is the other variable in a job - essentially, this is the "demand/risk" element of the job. The higher the Paradox rating, the greater the historical change completing the job represents, thus the riskier the job will become. (Everyone who has time travel wants to kill Hitler, no-one wants to deal with the fallout of killing Hitler.)

Paradox: This is the "refresh" mechanic; instead of Adaptability representing the ability to have just what you need, it represents the ability to edit the scene to your advantage; having a gun under the table you just sat down at, having already cut the wires, reaching behind the dumpster to pull out a spare magazine for your weapon. (And yes, it's stolen from Continuum.) Your Adaptability stat represents how many times you can SAFELY invoke a Paradox, how easily you keep track of your own personal timeline and can be relied on to, say, later (relative to your perspective) go back and duct-tape a gun under the table five minutes before you grabbed it. Invoking paradox AFTER that point can be done, but automatically puts a point on a new Paradox track which works like a Humanity track (Cracks, Crumbles and Breaks represent different levels of compromise to your personal timeline; at a Break, you are devoured by a Hound, or kill your grandfather by accident and erase yourself, or otherwise commit a paradox huge enough to destroy yourself and significantly disrupt those around you) Certain high-Ripple jobs carry an inherent Paradox value just for completing them. [Need an idea for how to reduce Paradox]

What I Would Have Done: Everyone has the idea of what they would do to change the past, to change the course the Revolution took so that it didn't create the corrupt, incompetent, murderous State that exists today. Who they would save, who they would kill, how they would do it differently, what they would do if they were in charge. This is a Diver's retirement; they save up to get enough time and power on the Machine that would allow them to permanently jump into the past and make a huge, meaningful change. To create their own Utopia. To change reality. To become the new Dear Leader of a new State after a new Revolution - nothing changes for anyone else. The Dive continues. (Because while zombie movies are how we talk about totality, time travel stories are how we talk about unintended consequence, about how good ideas can go back. And because every dystopian regime began life as a Utopian ideal until it met reality.)

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Adam_Autist on June 21, 2016, 07:20:16 AM
How do you deal with the past being in flux? If taker eqivalents retire and have conflicting goals? Is there some sort of in setting agreement. Although rereading your post it seems everyone gets an alternative universe to live in.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Gorkamorka on June 21, 2016, 08:10:37 AM
Alright, so here's my take on a Red Markets/Profit setting hack/variant. The idea is to channel the feeling of life under oppressive regimes like North Korea, use resource scarcity through rationing and to inject nerd tropes through time travel.

The State arose following the glorious Revolution, eclipsing all resistance of the ideologically backward and counter-revolutionary, and merging all previous nations into a single, global mega-state under a planned economy, all until the loving gaze of the loving figurehead, the Leader. All citizens of the State are equal, all economic activity is planned and executed meticulously by the fine men and women of the Ministry of Resource Allocation. One world, one system, one economy, one people, one ideology. Utopia has been achieved. All citizens of the State know this.

To suggest otherwise is not done. Or rather, those who do it are rarely heard from for much longer. Someone else is found to be living in their apartment; their spouse is found to have been married to another person. The State is pernicious and omnipresent, its presence reaching into every aspect of your life.

And yet, though none would publicly declare it, the resources each citizen receives from the Ministry are not enough for their needs. Because what you say you need is different from the Ministry says you need. And where there is need, there is opportunity and there is profit. There is a black market that will provide you with these things. The question is how to earn it.

Everyone has memories of the world before the Revolution, before the markets were controlled, certain goods and services were outlawed. Everyone has lost something to the ever-present march of Progress. Everyone was promised a utopia that only partially manifested. Everyone had someone they loved go up against the wall when the Revolution twisted and suddenly they were counter. The past is fertile ground, full of things that people want and need. This is where you dive, through illegal and tightly-regulated technology. You reach into the Revolution to retrieve lost things, to pull contraband from the past into the present; you secure local time-loops so a bereaved lover can relive the last night they spent in their paramour's arms; you give the counter-revolutionaries a glimmer of hope by providing them with proof that things can be/were/will be different, better. But you must do so secretly, because time travel is an illegal technology - why, the State asks, would you want to look at the past when Utopia is today? To suggest that this is no so is sedition.

Allocation: At the start of the game, the MRA gives you what it tells you that you need, that you deserve. This is your ration book, essentially. This is how much you have to live on for the session and also how much you must be seen to have; if your neighbour sees you suddenly bringing home armfuls of expensive whiskey, they'll mention it to someone who'll mention it to the Ministry. Naturally, it is not enough. You have a need that the Ministry will not - cannot - provide.

The Market: Commerce is illegal under State law, but most citizens dabble in the black market to make up the gaps in what the MRA provides. This is where you go to meet the needs the MRA does not meet, and this is your "enclave". It might be as small as the room above a bookshop, or a covert speakeasy in a cellar, or perhaps it is an extensive network of sewer tunnels. This is where people sell veal from cellar-reared calves, bathtub whisky, hand-drawn pornography. And this is where Divers ply their trade. Market is one of the variables of a job - it represents the raw value (monetary or emotional) of what is being dealt with; saving a wedding ring from being cremated in one of the mass graves of the Revolution, stealing cargo of a product no longer manufactured as the State deems it decadent.

The Dive: You have a rare, valuable talent - the ability to take jaunts back in time. So far the longest unassisted Dive has gone for one day  before the Diver "rubber-banded" back to the present day. At the Market, Divers operate crews that use time machines to assist their natural talents to allow for longer dives, to bring larger things back with them, to bring others back with them. This is where you earn your money.

The Risks: Because of course it can't be that simple. Diving is not an easy task. If nothing else, the past is a dangerous place; the Revolution was a shooting war (several, really) where many strange weapons were deployed, where many things not found in the State roamed and roared and spewed fire across the loyal soldiers of the Cause. What's more, there are risks inherent in changing the past; much was lost in the Revolution, so pilfering boxes of ammunition for a depot moments before the artillery shell hits causes little change, but saving the life of a martyr will.. draw attention. Mankind is not the only thing to have evolved the ability to move in four dimensions; the bravest and most ambitious Divers soon find themselves.. hounded. In-game, Ripple is the other variable in a job - essentially, this is the "demand/risk" element of the job. The higher the Paradox rating, the greater the historical change completing the job represents, thus the riskier the job will become. (Everyone who has time travel wants to kill Hitler, no-one wants to deal with the fallout of killing Hitler.)

Paradox: This is the "refresh" mechanic; instead of Adaptability representing the ability to have just what you need, it represents the ability to edit the scene to your advantage; having a gun under the table you just sat down at, having already cut the wires, reaching behind the dumpster to pull out a spare magazine for your weapon. (And yes, it's stolen from Continuum.) Your Adaptability stat represents how many times you can SAFELY invoke a Paradox, how easily you keep track of your own personal timeline and can be relied on to, say, later (relative to your perspective) go back and duct-tape a gun under the table five minutes before you grabbed it. Invoking paradox AFTER that point can be done, but automatically puts a point on a new Paradox track which works like a Humanity track (Cracks, Crumbles and Breaks represent different levels of compromise to your personal timeline; at a Break, you are devoured by a Hound, or kill your grandfather by accident and erase yourself, or otherwise commit a paradox huge enough to destroy yourself and significantly disrupt those around you) Certain high-Ripple jobs carry an inherent Paradox value just for completing them. [Need an idea for how to reduce Paradox]

What I Would Have Done: Everyone has the idea of what they would do to change the past, to change the course the Revolution took so that it didn't create the corrupt, incompetent, murderous State that exists today. Who they would save, who they would kill, how they would do it differently, what they would do if they were in charge. This is a Diver's retirement; they save up to get enough time and power on the Machine that would allow them to permanently jump into the past and make a huge, meaningful change. To create their own Utopia. To change reality. To become the new Dear Leader of a new State after a new Revolution - nothing changes for anyone else. The Dive continues. (Because while zombie movies are how we talk about totality, time travel stories are how we talk about unintended consequence, about how good ideas can go back. And because every dystopian regime began life as a Utopian ideal until it met reality.)

Thoughts?

I like it.  When can we play?
Serious.  I don't see any flaws right of the bat.  It needs work of course and there are unresolved things like healing paradox.  But as a start I don't see any inherent flaws.

On a side note.  Reading this made me think that you could use Red Markets to play a really depressing realistic version of Paranoia.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: RadioactiveBeer on June 21, 2016, 08:45:33 AM
How do you deal with the past being in flux? If taker eqivalents retire and have conflicting goals? Is there some sort of in setting agreement. Although rereading your post it seems everyone gets an alternative universe to live in.

It's.. bleaker and more cynical than that.

First: The State has a monopoly on time travel tech which is why Diving is illegal; it's how the State maintains its presence in the present. It's how the secret police erase counter-revolutionaries so secretly. Ministry agents ensuring key Revolution events occur as they should is one of the problems Divers encounter on higher-value jobs. So while you can commit minor changes fairly easily, they're ensuring that the the broad strokes come to pass - the State still exists, the Dear Leader still at its head.

Second: You'll note I kept the terminology vague and this was by decision; the global state has extended to the point that it's functionally nameless, the revolution like most revolutions goes through multiple phases and changes who is the ally and who is the enemy. Another shift in the revolution is just another shift in the end. A regime is a regime, a revolution is a revolution. The details change but the broad strokes stay the same.

Finally: every idealist has a tyrant in them. So a retirement "changes" the past only so much that Hitler becomes Stalin becomes Mao becomes Pol Pot.   Think about what Aaron would do if he was given absolute control over a global regime; he'd absolutely do what he thought was best for the people under his control but soon things would start catching fire...

I like it.  When can we play?
Serious.  I don't see any flaws right of the bat.  It needs work of course and there are unresolved things like healing paradox.  But as a start I don't see any inherent flaws.

On a side note.  Reading this made me think that you could use Red Markets to play a really depressing realistic version of Paranoia.

Thanks! As you say, I still need to think of a way to burn off Paradox. Fitting with the idea that time travel is a dissident act, you might burn it off in your Dependent-esque vignettes through actions that are loyalist; publicly reaffirm Party loyalty, working for the State bureaucracy etc. I also want to work in a way to encourage saving by making visible wealth dangerous.

Yeah, depressing Paranoia was definitely the sort of feeling I was going for. The idea originated in the role of farmer's markets in North Korea (where commerce is illegal) combined with the fact that time travel stories are illegal in China (because it suggests that the regime can be changed, that an alternative might be better etc) and I love reading about how insane North Korea is in general.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: trinite on June 21, 2016, 08:56:49 PM
That's a super cool time travel idea.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Adam_Autist on July 24, 2016, 11:11:35 AM
Had a conversation with a customer about the Anime/ Manga Gantz and now I have ideas.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Gorkamorka on July 25, 2016, 05:26:44 AM
Has anyone given thought to hacking the dice mechanic ?

Here is what I have been thinking about.  "It does not need to be a D10  and both dice do not need to be the same type."  *Mind blown*

Changing the dice type would have some interesting effects on the probability curve and the spending rules.

---

Say you want skills to be less important and make the players have to spend even bigger to guaranty results.   
Change the system to D12s or D20 if you want to be extremely mean .
So on a D12 the success rate of 2 point skill role goes from 59% (D10) to 57,5% and down to about 55% on a D20.

In the same way if you change to a D8 the success rate of the same 2 point skill goes up from 59% (D10) to about 61% and to 64% on a D6.

So if one wanted a more powerful feel to this system.  For example to play a DnD feeling campaign you could change to D8s. 

---

Then there is the really messy stuff.  Having different dice for the red and black.
If we make the RED a D12 and the BLACK a D10 then the whole probability curve changes.
A base role goes from 50% to about 42% success rate and our  2 point skill role goes from 59% to 50%.  You need a 2 point skill just to make average.

And going in the other direction changing the RED to a D8 and the BLACK to a D10. 
A base role goes from 50% to about 60% success rate and our  2 point skill role goes from 59% to about 69%.

So one could use changing dice type to create buffs/de-buff magic system effect, for example. Or use it to represent character class traits and flaws.  Or Injures. 

Enjoy.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: trinite on July 26, 2016, 05:26:32 PM
Whoah, cool ideas for the dice issues, Gorkamorka. Maybe I could let players use a Black d12 if they achieve a circumstantial advantage. Though generally speaking, it's probably better overall game design to count all bonuses and penalties using the same scale of plusses and minuses (you don't want the old Wold of Darkness problem where you could adjust difficulty by either changing number of successes or changing target numbers for success ).
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Gorkamorka on July 26, 2016, 06:01:00 PM
Whoah, cool ideas for the dice issues, Gorkamorka. Maybe I could let players use a Black d12 if they achieve a circumstantial advantage. Though generally speaking, it's probably better overall game design to count all bonuses and penalties using the same scale of plusses and minuses (you don't want the old Wold of Darkness problem where you could adjust difficulty by either changing number of successes or changing target numbers for success ).

You can do some neat things with the profit system by changing the dice type. 
If for example you want to make the game harder you just use D12s in stead of D10s.  What you have then done is decreased the value of all skills by 1/6th and made players have to spend more resources to make a roll.  You basically make them go through rations and ammo faster.

You could also use this to drop static skills completely.  Make all skills be a resource to spend like GumShoe and  lower the dice type at the same time.  D8s for example.

You could even just use a red an black D6 and make skills a spendable resource and we have more or less recreated GumShoe. :-)

About mixing dice.
I like it for a magic system.  One sort of magic affects red dice (Say clerics) and another set of magic affects black dice (Say sorcery).  So they can buff and de-buff independently of each other and make interesting effects happen in the game.  A cleric and a sorcerer together could buff up the fighter to a black D12 and a red D8. That would give you a 2/3 chance of success on an unskilled role and  74% success on a 2 point skill. 

You could then have spells change the dice of a particular skill for a particular number of rolls.  "Charm person" gives you a RED D6 for a single persuasion roll.  "Giant strength" gives you a BLACK D20 for damage only for one encounter.

What other spell could we make with this?

It's also a way to make magic items. the magic sword rolls a D12 for damage (BLACK ?).  Or the magic gun rolls a d12 for hit (RED ?) with 10-11-12 being head.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: trinite on August 01, 2016, 04:43:22 PM
Great idea to use it for magic! One of the mechanical challenges to making any magic system is making it actually feel "magical," i.e. different from whatever effects naturally-occurring skills and equipment can have. If having a sweet magical sword gives me +2 to attack, but flanking my target also gives me +2 to attack -- well, what's the magic, exactly?

But if you have a radically different mechanic that *only* happens when there's magic -- that's a special feeling.

I'm thinking this would work well in the gritty swords & sorcery setting I've been contemplating, where D&D-style adventurers have already reached such crazily high levels that they basically have amassed all the worthwhile wealth in the world, and are now stomping down the populace to make sure nobody can ever threaten their preeminence. The PCs would be hard-hustling street rogues, scruffy two-bit hedge wizards, or laid-off ex-guards, trying to keep food on the table without attracting the notice of any 20th level Epic Murder Hobos.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Alethea on August 01, 2016, 08:56:00 PM
The PCs would be hard-hustling street rogues, scruffy two-bit hedge wizards, or laid-off ex-guards, trying to keep food on the table without attracting the notice of any 20th level Epic Murder Hobos.

I'd play. Please? Can we make this happen? With Stokesian levels of plotting and death traps?
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Gorkamorka on August 02, 2016, 01:33:47 PM
The PCs would be hard-hustling street rogues, scruffy two-bit hedge wizards, or laid-off ex-guards, trying to keep food on the table without attracting the notice of any 20th level Epic Murder Hobos.

I'd play. Please? Can we make this happen? With Stokesian levels of plotting and death traps?

Can anyone apply?
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: trinite on August 02, 2016, 02:49:07 PM
The PCs would be hard-hustling street rogues, scruffy two-bit hedge wizards, or laid-off ex-guards, trying to keep food on the table without attracting the notice of any 20th level Epic Murder Hobos.

I'd play. Please? Can we make this happen? With Stokesian levels of plotting and death traps?

Can anyone apply?

Sure!

Death traps would be a big feature, for sure. That's why the Great Heroes who own the dungeons can lay off all their little guards. You don't have to pay death traps any wages.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: RadioactiveBeer on August 03, 2016, 11:50:40 PM
The PCs would be hard-hustling street rogues, scruffy two-bit hedge wizards, or laid-off ex-guards, trying to keep food on the table without attracting the notice of any 20th level Epic Murder Hobos.

I'd play. Please? Can we make this happen? With Stokesian levels of plotting and death traps?

Can anyone apply?

Sure!

Death traps would be a big feature, for sure. That's why the Great Heroes who own the dungeons can lay off all their little guards. You don't have to pay death traps any wages.

Not just death traps; if the Heroes horded all the magic stuff typical in a fantasy setting to themselves, that would include magical automata, right?

"Golemisation ruined the economy! Took jobs from the hard-working fleshy types!"
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: Gorkamorka on August 04, 2016, 04:10:48 AM
The PCs would be hard-hustling street rogues, scruffy two-bit hedge wizards, or laid-off ex-guards, trying to keep food on the table without attracting the notice of any 20th level Epic Murder Hobos.

I'd play. Please? Can we make this happen? With Stokesian levels of plotting and death traps?

Can anyone apply?

Sure!

Death traps would be a big feature, for sure. That's why the Great Heroes who own the dungeons can lay off all their little guards. You don't have to pay death traps any wages.

Not just death traps; if the Heroes horded all the magic stuff typical in a fantasy setting to themselves, that would include magical automata, right?

"Golemisation ruined the economy! Took jobs from the hard-working fleshy types!"

You can't outbid the skeletal workforce.
Title: Re: Hacking Red Market question.
Post by: trinite on August 04, 2016, 02:05:28 PM
The PCs would be hard-hustling street rogues, scruffy two-bit hedge wizards, or laid-off ex-guards, trying to keep food on the table without attracting the notice of any 20th level Epic Murder Hobos.

I'd play. Please? Can we make this happen? With Stokesian levels of plotting and death traps?

Can anyone apply?

Sure!

Death traps would be a big feature, for sure. That's why the Great Heroes who own the dungeons can lay off all their little guards. You don't have to pay death traps any wages.

Not just death traps; if the Heroes horded all the magic stuff typical in a fantasy setting to themselves, that would include magical automata, right?

"Golemisation ruined the economy! Took jobs from the hard-working fleshy types!"

You can't outbid the skeletal workforce.

My favorite Base Raiders character is a skeleton guard put out of work after Ragnarok, who decided to use technology to stop being a lowly mook.