: clockworkjoe March 02, 2010, 02:48:30 AM
The problem with Linear Fighters/Geometric Wizards games isn't so much that the non-casters never do anything but that the group has no way to work together, because half of them only become useful if the others are incapacitated. It's like the "fish-lad saves the day" back-up stories you get in superhero comics where Contrivo uses his reverso ray to turn everyone with superpowers into apes and is all set to take over the world until he's taken out by the one thing he didn't plan for: a twerp in a cat suit punching him in the balls. And then Superman looks at the camera and says "we learned an important lesson here today: some of us may be indestructible giants or time traveling robots or literally omnipotent, and some of us have arrows with boxing gloves on the end, each has an important tactical role to play and it takes all our unique skills to form the Justice League" and then Blue Beetle never does anything interesting ever again.
I am going to play pathfinder soon.
Discuss and stuff.
: Murph March 02, 2010, 10:42:11 AM
So we were in a cave. Not just any cave, an evil cave, a cave so evil it oozed acid from the walls. We are all level 5, I was a paladin, and my companions were a ninja, a cleric/wizard, and a bard. After traversing a pit of acid by jumping from column to column, we came across a black dragon, foul with evil and insane from time alone in the cave. He dropped behind us, spewing acid. My paladin, being the holy avenger smite evil type, charged the foul beasts, yelling at his companions to clear the wall in the back of the room so we could escape. The dragon grappled me next round, and jumped into the pit of acid we had just traversed. Instead of attempting to break his grip, I let go of my sword and shield, and started pummeling the dragon. As a paladin, I could use my healing powers on myself freely, so I could stay in the acid for some time. Seeing that I wasn't letting him go, the dragon then took to the air, and flung me off onto a ledge. Feeling heroic, I immediately ran and jumped back towards him, and rolling exceptionally well, managed to grab onto him again. By then the dragon was low in hit points, easily killable with one more blow from me, he attempted a barrel roll to dislodge me, and the DM said I had one final attack before I fell. I picked up my dice and....
rolled a 1.
I fell back into the acid pit. The wizard/cleric then cast magic missile and killed the dragon. Later on we fought a shadow and I took 5 strength damage, rendering me quite useless till the wizard/cleric could spend the night to cast lesser restoration.
Basically, 3.x is good for fighter types if the DM is good and you are a crazy son of bitch, just like every other game. The mechanics are biased towards casters, but if you are creative and crazy, you can make your mark as a fighter. That being said, if were playing D&D, I'd rather play 4th, or some other system entirely.
On a more practical level, if you want to play a fighter, play a paladin, they are pretty much mechanically better in every way.
However, the wizard will start to show you up very quickly.
: Tadanori Oyama March 02, 2010, 01:35:09 PM
For example, in the campaign guide Sorcerers have the option of trading one of their class features to gain use of an overcasting mechanic. In the core book, bloodlines become an enforced part of Sorcerer advancement, imparting additional spells and abilities as you level. Wizards have a similar adjustment from 3.5 regarding their Specialization class feature.
I certainly like Pathfinder, particularly their adjustments to the Cleric's Turning power. It doesn't do anything to the split progression of the classes.
: theoutsiders68 March 02, 2010, 02:02:40 PM
In my view 3.5 is solid for group play if the following is observed..
Firstly each of the core classes must be played ie have one cleric one fighter one thief one magic user
If you have more players maybe another cleric/fighter/or druid depending on campaign..
Other classes are not as strong so a straight barbarian is no match against a straight fighter ect.
The edition makes other classes nice on flavour weak on ability however if you are good at what you do you can mix certain careers together but you have to be careful not to dilute there power.
So in answer to your thread yes its balanced but you have to have players who know how to get the most out of it don't blame the system for your poor choices.
I could go on but thats my take great question.
: clockworkjoe March 02, 2010, 02:23:14 PM
There's a cleric spell that grants them trap finding ability so they can replace rogues too.
: Murph March 02, 2010, 02:31:37 PM
Other classes are not as strong so a straight barbarian is no match against a straight fighter ect.
This is the exact opposite of balance!
So in answer to your thread yes its balanced but you have to have players who know how to get the most out of it don't blame the system for your poor choices.
I think you're confusing party balance with class balance. For example, you might have a balanced breakfast, but that doesn't mean the bacon is just as good for you as the fruit. If bacon and fruit were balanced, you should need an equal amount of both, and you shouldn't be able to just take more of the other, or substitute one entirely, to make your breakfast more
Also, I have a problem with any design that makes me play a character creation minigame that I might lose before I actually get to the game. Don't get me wrong, character creation should be full of meaningful choices, but never wrong choices.
: ethan_dawe March 02, 2010, 02:35:11 PM
Knight 12 (PHB2)
Rogue 12
Duskblade 12 (PHB2)
Cleric 9 Radiant Servant of Pelor 3
The Duskblade typically does the most damage, but ends up with low HP regularly
The Knight anchors the group soaking up damdge and dealing okay damdage too.
The Rogue is hit or miss with damdage depending if he can sneak attack
The Cleric heals, buffs, and now occasionally blasts.
: Tadanori Oyama March 02, 2010, 02:47:16 PM
When a Wizard wakes up every morning, he is a different person than he was before. His base attack bonus, his skills, and his attributes have no changed but he selects his complete spell list and can fill whatever role or take on whatever tasks he anticipates may come before him.
When a Fighter wakes up every morning, he hasn't changed in the least. A Fighter's "power" is tied to his feats; these feats do not change in any significant manner in the short term and most of his primary abilities (Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Proficiency) are inherently specialized.
One of my favorite elements from the Tomb of Battle, which introduced Martial Adept classes, was the Warblade. One of the Warblade's class powers was that with a small amount of preparation it could change the specific weapon to which many of its feats applied, giving the class a wider range of options.
: Murph March 02, 2010, 03:08:04 PM
My players have managed to get all the way frlom 3rd to 12th level in 3.5 without a wizard. The party is:
Knight 12 (PHB2)
Rogue 12
Duskblade 12 (PHB2)
Cleric 9 Radiant Servant of Pelor 3
The Duskblade typically does the most damage, but ends up with low HP regularly
The Knight anchors the group soaking up damdge and dealing okay damdage too.
The Rogue is hit or miss with damdage depending if he can sneak attack
The Cleric heals, buffs, and now occasionally blasts.
Its not that you can't do without a wizard, but lets say a level 12 wizard shows up to your group.
He can probably outdamage the Duskblade, as well as being more sneaky
He can summon something (or become something) that can soak more damage than the knight
He can detect traps and unlock doors, at least as good as the rogue
He can't heal, but he can buff and blast
He's better mechanically than 3 of the 4 party members, and the 4th is also a caster.
: theoutsiders68 March 02, 2010, 05:08:12 PM
Other classes are not as strong so a straight barbarian is no match against a straight fighter ect.
This is the exact opposite of balance!So in answer to your thread yes its balanced but you have to have players who know how to get the most out of it don't blame the system for your poor choices.
I think you're confusing party balance with class balance. For example, you might have a balanced breakfast, but that doesn't mean the bacon is just as good for you as the fruit. If bacon and fruit were balanced, you should need an equal amount of both, and you shouldn't be able to just take more of the other, or substitute one entirely, to make your breakfast morepowerfulhealthy. Its not a perfect metaphor, but it has bacon in it.
Also, I have a problem with any design that makes me play a character creation minigame that I might lose before I actually get to the game. Don't get me wrong, character creation should be full of meaningful choices, but never wrong choices.
I am sorry to say this however i must some characters are better than other thats a fact however as i said if you know what your doing its fine.
Unfortunatly there not balanced and i personally dont mind that.
I still believe you can make great characters in this system.
Also someone said that druids are better than fighters and so are clerics they clearly do not know what they are talking about.
A straight fighter is critical to a groups performance at high level with the right components the group all shine.
: malyss March 02, 2010, 05:12:10 PM
Its not that you can't do without a wizard, but lets say a level 12 wizard shows up to your group.
He can probably outdamage the Duskblade, as well as being more sneaky
He can summon something (or become something) that can soak more damage than the knight
He can detect traps and unlock doors, at least as good as the rogue
He can't heal, but he can buff and blast
He's better mechanically than 3 of the 4 party members, and the 4th is also a caster.
Yes - let's say a 12th level wizards shows up - what does he do? Does he play a wizard, or does he play a rogue?
Knock: "make a caster level check against the DC of the lock with a +10 bonus." = d20 + level + 10. His bonus is 22. Once. How many second level spells (or higher slots) is he going to devote to opening doors and chests etc? The rogue? oh, his bonus is (and lets assume equal stats - Dex 24) and assuming he only half-assed disable device (which he wouldn't...) 6+3+7+2 (lockpicks...) = 18. And that is without him even devoting himself to it. But if he did, and because in pathfinder disable device also covers traps (sorry wizard... how did you disable that trap again? Wait - how did you detect that trap?) 12+3+7+2 = 24 as many times as he wants to...
Clerics get find traps, but they don't get knock... and find traps still doesn't let you disable the trap.
Am I saying wizards, with the right preparation, aren't effective? Heck no. They can be great - in very precise ways. That is the role they fill. They are supposed to be able to adapt to many circumstances, but at no point are they absolutely better than any other single class - period. It all depends on the mystical scenario you craft to put them in.
I can come up with scenarios that a rogue could handle at any time and that a PREPARED wizard could do well at - but not if the wizard isn't prepared.
A fighter is a fighter all of the time. A wizard can be, occasionally, and for a little while, once or maybe twice in a day, a basic fighter (no nifty feats and really high AC). But when he is being a fighter, he isn't being a wizard. And let's hope the other guys don't get initiative or sneak attack the little guy...
: clockworkjoe March 02, 2010, 05:18:41 PM
I am sorry to say this however i must some characters are better than other thats a fact however as i said if you know what your doing its fine.
Unfortunatly there not balanced and i personally dont mind that.
I still believe you can make great characters in this system.
Also someone said that druids are better than fighters and so are clerics they clearly do not know what they are talking about.
A straight fighter is critical to a groups performance at high level with the right components the group all shine.
Can you specify how a straight fighter is critical in a high level (level 10 minimum) encounter in a way that can't be done with a druid or cleric? Hell, even a paladin is better than a fighter. Just one example would be fine.
: Setherick March 02, 2010, 05:52:19 PM
My players have managed to get all the way frlom 3rd to 12th level in 3.5 without a wizard. The party is:
Knight 12 (PHB2)
Rogue 12
Duskblade 12 (PHB2)
Cleric 9 Radiant Servant of Pelor 3
The Duskblade typically does the most damage, but ends up with low HP regularly
The Knight anchors the group soaking up damdge and dealing okay damdage too.
The Rogue is hit or miss with damdage depending if he can sneak attack
The Cleric heals, buffs, and now occasionally blasts.
A level 12, that duskblade is basically a wizard with a sword. What the party will miss, though, is mass attack spells. (Thank god I have internet again.)
: clockworkjoe March 02, 2010, 08:54:27 PM
On a more practical level, if you want to play a fighter, play a paladin, they are pretty much mechanically better in every way.
that's not true a fighter has bonus feats
in my eye there =
what feats are better than smite evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, special mount, spell casting, turn undead and remove disease?
: Kroack March 02, 2010, 08:59:58 PM
Solution: Iron Heroes
: clockworkjoe March 02, 2010, 09:20:55 PM
: Kroack March 02, 2010, 09:36:56 PM
Just watch and see as the thread unravels.
It'll happen.
Trust me.
: Kroack March 02, 2010, 09:57:31 PM
No explanation needed.
Except you should have replaced the pen with a penis.
For the lolz.
: clockworkjoe March 02, 2010, 10:06:54 PM
I was just trying to encourage people to play Iron Heroes
hence courage wolf
: ethan_dawe March 02, 2010, 10:33:15 PM
As for the duskblade, still not really a wizard in terms of variety and shear mass firepower.
: ethan_dawe March 02, 2010, 10:43:02 PM
: clockworkjoe March 02, 2010, 10:45:47 PM
: Setherick March 02, 2010, 10:47:22 PM
I LIEK PICTURES
I was just trying to encourage people to play Iron Heroes
hence courage wolf
Dude, I've been reading Grimm's Tales at night and there are some fucked up stories about wolves.
: Murph March 02, 2010, 10:56:36 PM
On a more practical level, if you want to play a fighter, play a paladin, they are pretty much mechanically better in every way.
that's not true a fighter has bonus feats
in my eye there =
what feats are better than smite evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, special mount, spell casting, turn undead and remove disease?
Skill focus: basket weaving you ROLLplayer :smug:
: ethan_dawe March 02, 2010, 10:57:58 PM
: clockworkjoe March 02, 2010, 11:02:24 PM
If's it is hard enough to challenge spellcasters, the fighter is going to suffer
If it's easy enough that fighters can handle it, spellcasters will either blow through it or you will have to gimp them with shit like anti magic fields or steal their spellbooks or something gimmicky like that.
: ethan_dawe March 02, 2010, 11:21:28 PM
In any case, at higher levels of D&D 3.5, wizard power is daunting. The game mechanics are not balanced. As long as everyone has fun though, it's not an issue. It does make having fun harder though :-)
: sarendt March 02, 2010, 11:25:12 PM
: clockworkjoe March 02, 2010, 11:26:20 PM
: Murph March 02, 2010, 11:34:49 PM
What ever happened to casting time? If higher level spells took two or more rounds to cast the magik types would be a bit more balanced with others?
This could lead to some boredom around the table. It really sucks when you have a turn when you don't do anything. Imagine if you had to skip every other round.
: sarendt March 02, 2010, 11:49:09 PM
This could lead to some boredom around the table. It really sucks when you have a turn when you don't do anything. Imagine if you had to skip every other round.
I thought the whole point of this is to balance with melee types who feel underpowered? Doesn't the fighter in 3.x feel bored if he just swings every round? From a balance point of view if the magik types are really throwing heavy spells it should take a few extra rounds, not to mention it would be an indication to the intended targets too. Monster one "Gee Bob, that wizard standing over there has been casting the same spell for two rounds, do you think we should do something about that?" Monster Bob, "Nah, I think we have a few more rounds before he finishes it, lets just ignore him..." BOOOOOM :*)
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 12:11:42 AM
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 12:12:19 AM
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 12:41:47 AM
Also, fighters are objectively weaker than paladins.
how? they have the same base attack and saves
Paladins have better saves because of divine grace - a flat bonus to all saves based on the paladin's charisma.
Paladins can heal themselves in battle and have a magical mount. The mount gets attacks as well.
: Setherick March 03, 2010, 12:48:49 AM
Also, fighters are objectively weaker than paladins.
how? they have the same base attack and saves
Yes, but Paladins also have the ability to cast spells on top of their abilities. The paladin is the most versatile character in the game and also the most difficult to play.
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 01:01:25 AM
what can you do with a feat that you can't do with magic?
Also paladins aren't as versatile as druids.
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 01:17:31 AM
what are they
i want names
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 01:33:06 AM
The druid is easily the most powerful base class
At level 20, they can turn into a huge elemental, have a T-rex animal companion AND cast level 9 spells like storm of vengeance. I mean, that is some fucked up shit. Think about the druid who turns into an air elemental - flying, traits like:
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning.
* Not subject to critical hits or flanking.
* Elementals do not eat, sleep, or breathe.
and a whirlwind attack - not counting all those spells and the T-rex grappling casters and so on.
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 01:37:01 AM
Are you fucking kidding me?
okay toughness is only helpful at low levels will give you extra hit points so your 1st level fighter instead of having 12 hp he'll have 15
as i said improved critical is good for all weapons and classes
quick draw free action to draw your sword
skill focus
weapon focus and specialization
whirlwind attack
all those ranged attack feats like point blank shot shot and on the run
improved initaitive
dodge
defect arrows
shall i go on?
Those are pretty weak. 3 hit points means jack and shit.
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 01:45:44 AM
human Wizard 1 vs human Fighter 1
you make a level 1 fighter with http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm
use these rolls for your attributes 18, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8
slightly better than standard array for you.
I'll make a wizard.
Let's say these guys want to duel each other until one is dead or in negative hit points.
They can start the duel anywhere between 10 and 100 feet from each other. I'll let you choose how far.
: Boyos March 03, 2010, 01:47:36 AM
as i said improved critical is good for all weapons and classes - Valid but you still have lots of level requirements for them.
quick draw free action to draw your sword - Who dont walk around while holding there Great Axe.
skill focus - Ehh.
weapon focus and specialization - good for the fighter
whirlwind attack - takes forever to actuly get, when you do get it its nice in situations, Dont help aginst a Solo monster.
all those ranged attack feats like point blank shot shot and on the run - Play a ranger.
improved initaitive - Everyone should have this.
dodge - What are you a monk?
defect arrows - See above you get it free!
Those are pretty weak. 3 hit points means jack and shit.
i said your FIRST LEVEL fighter
thats like a whole wizards hit die
You get 3 feats if your a human, of the 3 as a fighter your gonna get power attack, wepon focus, and maybe toughness cus seriously thats about the only thing left to get, other then quick draw.
: Boyos March 03, 2010, 02:00:25 AM
Str 14 +2
Con 13 +1
Dex 18 +3
wis 12 +1
int 8 -1
Cha 10
Rolling 1d10: (5): Total = 5
Dwarf Level 1 Fighter
Feats: Imp Init, Wepon Focus 1d10 Sword.
Equipment 1d10 Sword, Hide armor +3, Shield - AC=17(10+3AC+4Dex+1Shield)
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 02:00:47 AM
str 8
dex 14
con 13
int 18
wis 10
cha 12
hit points 8
AC 12
Initiative +6
relevant skills:
concentration +4
spellcraft +4
knowledge arcana +4
knowledge religion +4
Bluff +2
Diplomacy +2
Craft: Basket weaving +4
familiar
toad +3 hit points
feats
scribe scroll
spell focus illusion
improved initiative
spells
color spray DC 16 (10+1 level+4 int modifier+1 spell focus)
color spray
weapon
scythe 2d4 ×4 critical
: Boyos March 03, 2010, 02:01:44 AM
We start 15 feet from each other
Initative
Rolling 1d20: (14): Total = 14
+5
: Boyos March 03, 2010, 02:02:12 AM
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 02:02:25 AM
how far apart do you want to start?
Initiative
Rolling 1d20+6: (19)+6: Total = 25
: Tadanori Oyama March 03, 2010, 02:02:49 AM
So 6 hp
Your first level man, use the full Hit Die.
Addition-
What Ross said.
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 02:03:37 AM
You have a +1 bonus to will.
: Boyos March 03, 2010, 02:05:02 AM
Rolling 1d20: (8): Total = 8
: Boyos March 03, 2010, 02:05:35 AM
P.S. Forgot I was a dwarf 13 HP
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 02:08:37 AM
Rolling 2d4: (1+4): Total = 5
rounds.Round 1:
I walk over to you.
Round 2:
I coup de grace you for
Rolling 2d4-1: (4+2)-1: Total = 5
x4 damage. I automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 02:09:07 AM
: Boyos March 03, 2010, 02:09:54 AM
Rolling 1d20: (6): Total = 6
COME ON NAT 20!
: Boyos March 03, 2010, 02:10:15 AM
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 02:10:41 AM
No.
: Mckma March 03, 2010, 02:20:00 AM
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 02:26:13 AM
Now obviously, initiative plays a big role in level 1 duels where characters get downed in a single shot.
But even if he had won initiative he would have to make an attack roll - AC 12 with a +6 bonus (+1 BAB, +1 weapon focus, +2 strength, +2 for charging at least 10 feet)
so a roll of 1-5 would have missed (25%) or 75% to hit.
Then he would have to deal at least 8 damage to knock me down - he does 1d10+2 damage the +2 is from strength
so a 6 or better on a 1d10 - 50%
so to win you need to make 2 rolls, one with a 75% chance of happening and another with a 50% chance of happening.
so according to the probability calculator you have a 37.5% chance of killing me if you won initiative.
Also I just realized you were a dwarf so you only need a 14 or better on the save. But that's only one roll and you only had a 35% chance of making it.
: Boyos March 03, 2010, 02:29:17 AM
Rolling 1d20: (12): Total = 12
Rolling 1d10: (1): Total = 1
Let's see if I could have.
: Boyos March 03, 2010, 02:30:18 AM
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 02:42:19 AM
: theoutsiders68 March 03, 2010, 05:41:22 AM
If you dont have a fighter at high level
are you telling me the enemy cant reach the wizard ever boy he better win initiative all the time.
No player is that silly they believe that a straight wizard is not in danger if a fighter gets toe to toe with them.
They are more likely to dim or teleport away if they know whats best for them.
So yes the game is balanced if you know what your doing as a group.
If your asking are the classes balanced then no but its a group game and all the core classes are important.
Have you played much 3.5 ?
: malyss March 03, 2010, 08:44:21 AM
(http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/9893/doitwolf.png)
All the pictures are blocked at my work :(
: malyss March 03, 2010, 09:05:45 AM
So while the fighter isn't always going to lose, the deck is stacked against him vs spellcasters.I don't think you have proven this completely. In this situation, yes, the deck is against him. How many encounters take place in these situations?
Who has a better chance in this fight:
Fighter v. 3 mooks or wizard v. 3 mooks
And lets assume the mooks don't just stand in a nice triangle/square for the wizard to hit them with colour spray or sleep...
The point is - you can craft any situation to be more beneficial to one character or another. That has nothing to do with balance.
The point of the game system isn't to balance a character class - it is to balance a party. A balanced party has various roles filled. Sometimes a class can dip into another role to vary the flavour, but it doesn't mean that the class is now "unbalanced."
I still don't understand why this is a competition between whose class is better - they are different. That's all. They are supposed to be greater than the sum of their parts as a party.
As GM, I could have you make any character you wanted to - and I could either kill your character by deigning an encounter that wasn't suited to you and that you couldn't possibly overcome on your own, or I could make an interesting story that played to your strengths and challenged you in fun ways that you could overcome with some ingenuity.
Don't blame the player or class if you can't make an interesting and challenging story.
: Mckma March 03, 2010, 11:03:22 AM
: Tadanori Oyama March 03, 2010, 11:17:53 AM
So yes the game is balanced if you know what your doing as a group.
I feel that that statement is inherently flawed. If the players and the GM have to activally work to keep the game balanced, than the game, in its pure form, isn't really balanced. It is being held in an artifical state by the actions of those playing it.
: ethan_dawe March 03, 2010, 11:30:13 AM
You've been running 4E for awhile now, how do you find the balance? I assume it's more balanced than 3/3.5. I've been playing it between sessions of my game, but not enough to have a definitive opinion. It seems more balanced, but combat also seems to take longer. I love how the classes work together from what I've seen. It feels much more teamworky.
: Boyos March 03, 2010, 12:19:17 PM
: malyss March 03, 2010, 12:25:00 PM
I think combat only takes longer due to people still trying to figure out what they want to do. Most people that I have played with if you know what you want to do its still just 3 or 4 dice rolls and some quick math. I think its the amount of Options that slows the combat down, when you have a player that either dont check what he wants to do, while everyone else is checking, or is just not paying attention to turn rotation, or watching the other people play. And it is all still new to most people, seeing like you still playing games of 3/.5 ed still inbetween, its a system that I feel will take longer to learn compared to older versions. (well other then fucking thaco I hated that shit, still dont fully understand it!)
What he said. Basically.
One thing is the amount of on-going stuff that you need to keep track of - it can add up pretty quick... (multiple on-going damage of different types, plus multiple conditions etc.)
I did not find it hard to pick up, and it is easier to do a lot of very cinematic stuff in it. It certainly suits that play style very well.
: Tadanori Oyama March 03, 2010, 12:32:48 PM
That said, my average combat turn is around thirty seconds because I've already selected my target and my power before my turn comes up. As Controller (my preferred role) I get to hang back and do the stunning, dazing, and in general chip-kill the enemies.
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 01:52:22 PM
If you thought 4E combat is slow, you haven't tried epic level 3E combat. Every character worth its salt can cast a dozen or so buff spells that last 24 hours so you have to try to peel them off with dispel magics and shit like that. I mean you have no idea what high level combat is like in 3E if you think 4E combat is more complex and time consuming. No idea.
3E is much worse than 4E about tracking modifiers by the time you get to epic level it's fucking insane
Every buff spell in 3E had different ways to compute (attribute modifier spell? Welp recalculate all the shit that attribute modifies) plus shit like negative levels, plus metamagic spells that increased duration and so on.
HEY HOW ABOUT 3E GRAPPLING
By the time a cleric is level 7, he can cast divine power
Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level (which may give you additional attacks), you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and you gain 1 temporary hit point per caster level.
Which makes him equal to a fighter in raw attacking power. Plus, I'm sure there's probably an easy way to extend its duration to 24 hours.
Anyway you are right that there are some situations that a wizard isn't probably going to handle as well as a fighter - such as facing 3 mooks at level 1. And you are right that it is about team balance - but what is the fighter bringing to the table that another spellcaster can't?
A druid can use the animal companion and wildshape to tank enemies. A cleric wears heavy armor and can heal himself to do the same thing. All of the spellcasters can summon monsters to tank.
So if I were to make the best possible 4 person adventuring team out of core 3E classes I would go
Wizard
Cleric
Druid
Bard - max out diplomacy - make enemies friends and all that.
Trapfinding is the only weakness but that's easily fixable with a few spells until someone can take a rogue cohort.
: Tadanori Oyama March 03, 2010, 02:03:12 PM
: Setherick March 03, 2010, 02:08:50 PM
I'll defer to Ross on this one since my highest level 3.0 game was only to level 14 or 15 and with players who purposefully took as few frills as they could with their characters. Even the Wizard was very toned down. At 15th level they still thought of themselves as street level dudes.
Ever had a character reduce a balrog to 2 hit points in a single round. I have.
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 02:10:26 PM
I mean look at this epic level gestalt arena fight http://rpol.net/display.cgi?gi=38169&ti=13&date=1257249704&msgpage=&show=all
it's worse than fucking exalted
: theoutsiders68 March 03, 2010, 02:36:04 PM
I respect your thoughts and its a great thread.
However we both have different views
Check out my thoughts!
: Tadanori Oyama March 03, 2010, 02:38:30 PM
Hi joe
I respect your thoughts and its a great thread.
However we both have different views
Check out my thoughts!
You know that "joe" is Ross, right? Guy who runs the show? Mr. Payton if your nasty.
: Setherick March 03, 2010, 05:05:25 PM
Hi joe
I respect your thoughts and its a great thread.
However we both have different views
Check out my thoughts!
You know that "joe" is Ross, right? Guy who runs the show? Mr. Payton if your nasty.
He also respond to Harri Potoru, but you'll have to ask him why.
: Tadanori Oyama March 03, 2010, 05:16:53 PM
He also respond to Harri Potoru, but you'll have to ask him why.Hi joeYou know that "joe" is Ross, right? Guy who runs the show? Mr. Payton if your nasty.
I respect your thoughts and its a great thread.
However we both have different views
Check out my thoughts!
I'm pretty sure Tom goes by the Duke of New York as well. Or Boxy Brown if you catch him with a mustache.
: Tadanori Oyama March 03, 2010, 06:23:03 PM
i never said the balance was good i said fighters and paladins are =
and then you bring in the wizard out of nowhere
and i was saying i like fighters better than paladins cause I CANT STAND LG
The arguement here has been about the balance between classes, not about perference.
The point isn't that you like Fighter's better, it's that a Paladin is mechanically superior to the Fighter. Fighters gain "special" feats and they gain more feats but these feats are narrowly applied. Class features are what truly define a class and a Paladin's class features are potent.
A starting Paladin is immune to magical and mundance disease and immune to fear and fear related effects and can heal itself.
A starting Fighter is a little better with it's choosen weapon (Weapon Focus), and whatever other minor bonuses one wants to take the feats to get.
: Setherick March 03, 2010, 06:37:15 PM
i never said the balance was good i said fighters and paladins are =
and then you bring in the wizard out of nowhere
and i was saying i like fighters better than paladins cause I CANT STAND LG
The arguement here has been about the balance between classes, not about perference.
The point isn't that you like Fighter's better, it's that a Paladin is mechanically superior to the Fighter. Fighters gain "special" feats and they gain more feats but these feats are narrowly applied. Class features are what truly define a class and a Paladin's class features are potent.
A starting Paladin is immune to magical and mundance disease and immune to fear and fear related effects and can heal itself.
A starting Fighter is a little better with it's choosen weapon (Weapon Focus), and whatever other minor bonuses one wants to take the feats to get.
Basically what Tad is saying, fighters are teh suxor.
: Tadanori Oyama March 03, 2010, 06:52:09 PM
i know its about balance not preferance
i think there balanced cause the fighter has bonus feats and it seems like no mater how many times i say that you just dont get it and i am not saying fighters are better than other martial classes i think there = NOT BETTER
and thats not cause i hate LG
And your not hearing me either: Fighters and Paladins are not equal. Paladins are better. The bonus feats a Fighter gets will never make them as powerful as a Paladin.
A fourth level Human Fighter has a BAB of +4, a 3/1/1 save spread, and six feats. They gain access to Weapon Specialization, which gives them +2 damage to a weapon they have weapon focus on.
A fourth level Human Paladin has a BAB of +4 and three feats. Divine Grace gives the Paladin a bonus to all saving throws equal to CHA mod, so it's inherently higher than the Fighter's though they have the same base progression. The Paladin can Smite Evil. The Paladin is immune to disease. The Paladin is immune to fear. The Paladin can turn Undead. The Paladin can cast Divine Spells.
In short: "fighters are teh suxor". They get the short end of the stick in power balance.
: ethan_dawe March 03, 2010, 07:03:10 PM
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 07:09:57 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y50gUSDYe1k&feature=sub (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y50gUSDYe1k&feature=sub)
great explaination for this disscussion
Watched it.
I know how the rules work. I ran games for years with 3.5. I've run arena fights with high level characters. I've written and have been paid to write 3.5 D&D material. I know the rules.
classes are not balanced because there is nothing a non-caster can do that a caster cannot do.
A druid has an animal companion that can protect it for the one round the druid needs to cast summon nature's ally. Plus all casters have concentration as a class skill.
A rogue's hide skill is nothing compared to invisibility plus flying and etherealness plus illusion magic in general. Sneak attack doesn't work on a LOT of monsters (undead, constructs, plants etc)
Blindsight defeats hide.
The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability. Unless noted otherwise, blindsight is continuous, and the creature need do nothing to use it. Some forms of blindsight, however, must be triggered as a free action. If so, this is noted in the creature’s description. If a creature must trigger its blindsight ability, the creature gains the benefits of blindsight only during its turn.
3E can be fun to play. I did run several campaigns with it. BUT why bother with unbalanced rules where some players are angel summoners and some are BMX bandits? Why not play 4E or some other system that is better balanced?
A group is best served by having all casters. An arcane spellcaster, a cleric, a druid and maybe a bard.
So, can you give me a specific situation where a group is better served with a fighter than a druid?
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 07:12:46 PM
a paladin just needs to boost his charisma to get better saves and then the fighter is out of feats. So you still have a character who is worse than the paladin in all respects.
: Tadanori Oyama March 03, 2010, 07:14:41 PM
i guess it really comes down to opinion in witch is better
Paladins.
Everything Ross said.
There's also the tiny problem that the feats which increase Saves aren't Fighter Bonus Feats so a Fighter would have to use their normally acquired feats to purchase them, which any class in the game could also do.
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 07:23:45 PM
Using rules as written, the social skills in the game are fucking dangerous especially when you use epic skill stuff. It's not impossible for a character to max out shit like diplomacy and bluff to basically convince people anything.
: Setherick March 03, 2010, 07:25:08 PM
EDIT: Link should work now.
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 09:00:03 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y50gUSDYe1k&feature=sub (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y50gUSDYe1k&feature=sub)
great explaination for this disscussion
Watched it.
I know how the rules work. I ran games for years with 3.5. I've run arena fights with high level characters. I've written and have been paid to write 3.5 D&D material. I know the rules.
classes are not balanced because there is nothing a non-caster can do that a caster cannot do.
A druid has an animal companion that can protect it for the one round the druid needs to cast summon nature's ally. Plus all casters have concentration as a class skill.
A rogue's hide skill is nothing compared to invisibility plus flying and etherealness plus illusion magic in general. Sneak attack doesn't work on a LOT of monsters (undead, constructs, plants etc)
Blindsight defeats hide.
The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability. Unless noted otherwise, blindsight is continuous, and the creature need do nothing to use it. Some forms of blindsight, however, must be triggered as a free action. If so, this is noted in the creature’s description. If a creature must trigger its blindsight ability, the creature gains the benefits of blindsight only during its turn.
3E can be fun to play. I did run several campaigns with it. BUT why bother with unbalanced rules where some players are angel summoners and some are BMX bandits? Why not play 4E or some other system that is better balanced?
A group is best served by having all casters. An arcane spellcaster, a cleric, a druid and maybe a bard.
So, can you give me a specific situation where a group is better served with a fighter than a druid?
so your saying sean is just totally wrong and dosent know anything
cant we just all have our own opinions?
some people like 3.5E some like 4E cant we all just get along
as for paladin vs fighter there is no right or wrong answer
and if your gona reply to me and say "no i am right" than do so just keep in mind that makes me think your just a contrary little bitch
What do you want from me? I've explained my position and defended it with what I think is good evidence and arguments. I can't stop you from playing 3E obviously.
But the thing is, saying '3E is a balanced system' is factual statement which can be disproven, not an opinion (provided you define balanced in a reasonable manner, which I could do but that would take a long time and that would derail this discussion). I could go on and on about game design and concepts such as system mastery but I don't think you really care.
It seems to me that you feel that any criticism of 3E is a criticism of you as a gamer. That if you play 3E, then you are a bad gamer. I am not making that argument. All I am saying and all I've said is: 3E is not a balanced system. 4E is better balanced than 3E.
: Setherick March 03, 2010, 09:10:20 PM
i meant it is an opinion witch is better
by deffinition thats an opinion
and the contrary little bitch thing only goes for the paladin thing
and i posted that to ask what do you want from ME
Actually, if you go back to your original post (http://slangdesign.com/forums/index.php?topic=561.msg9635#msg9635) you state:
On a more practical level, if you want to play a fighter, play a paladin, they are pretty much mechanically better in every way.
that's not true a fighter has bonus feats
in my eye there =
So you never stated it as an opinion, you stated it as an objective fact. And now, a couple of days and thirty or forty posts later, Ross has proven to you time and time again that your initial statement was wrong.
: robotkarateman March 03, 2010, 09:25:08 PM
(http://www.steveospage.com/pics/bucket_o_kittens.jpg)
: Setherick March 03, 2010, 09:26:54 PM
: Setherick March 03, 2010, 09:54:59 PM
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 09:56:03 PM
: Mckma March 03, 2010, 09:57:47 PM
To be honest, this thread needed derailed. Some threads ask for it.
I think the thread suffered from people thinking they were being attacked after they misunderstood an initial statement and attacked it.
I do have to say this though, 3E is not balanced. It's a good system, and I enjoy it, but it's not balanced...
(Kinda like some movies, they're fun to watch, and I really like them, but they are terrible movies)
: Setherick March 03, 2010, 09:59:49 PM
More cowbell (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4royOLtvmQ).
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 10:06:03 PM
It's better than Palladium. And Synnibarr. And FATAL.
: Tadanori Oyama March 03, 2010, 10:42:07 PM
This thread needs to be executed.
Execute Order 66
execute kroack
how do you like it
Since it's not an ironic twist on a movie line and isn't really funny, not very much. But then I suppose you where asking a question, because questions end with fucking question marks.
The funniest part of this thread is it's making me want to go play some 3.5 again. I should start a pick up game at the local game shop.
: clockworkjoe March 03, 2010, 10:47:34 PM
(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/8876/mf8.gif)
: Boyos March 03, 2010, 11:07:39 PM
: Boyos March 03, 2010, 11:27:03 PM
: Sean-o-tron March 03, 2010, 11:54:06 PM
His Youtube account is jerryseinfeldisfunny.
Think about it.
: Sean-o-tron March 04, 2010, 12:03:11 AM
2. It clearly shows you do, in fact, have a mental disability.
: Order66 March 04, 2010, 12:06:46 AM
I'm an Internet Wizard. I thought everyone knew this.
It clearly shows you do, in fact, have a mental disability.
what how should i know that you are an internet wizard
your gona take that back right?
if you dont you are a huge jack-ass not just cause your making fun of me but cause that is just offensive edit: to the mentaly disabled i mean like its not there fault
my brother is autistic so just take it back
: Sean-o-tron March 04, 2010, 12:10:17 AM
... So hey, how about that 3E balance! Crazy stuff, isn't it?
: Sean-o-tron March 04, 2010, 12:13:33 AM
: Sean-o-tron March 04, 2010, 12:21:09 AM
: Setherick March 04, 2010, 12:31:28 AM
: Sean-o-tron March 04, 2010, 12:37:46 AM
Once again, Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law) has been invoked.
Yep, we're done here.
: Boyos March 04, 2010, 12:49:21 AM
: FuzzyDan March 04, 2010, 12:49:43 AM
: Boyos March 04, 2010, 12:51:34 AM
: robotkarateman March 04, 2010, 12:51:58 AM
It's better than Palladium.
(http://www.steveospage.com/pics/hypnosiembieda.gif)
Hypno-Siembieda says you want to take that back.
: Tadanori Oyama March 04, 2010, 01:07:16 AM
Once again, Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law) has been invoked.
Yep, we're done here.
Seconded. Checking out.
: Maze March 04, 2010, 01:32:22 AM
: Sean-o-tron March 04, 2010, 01:33:42 AM
: Mckma March 04, 2010, 01:35:33 AM
What if no one else besides Ross posted on this thread and it's just him arguing at a wall for 5 pages?
Would he notice?
: clockworkjoe March 04, 2010, 01:35:40 AM
: Mckma March 04, 2010, 01:38:34 AM
Goddamnit kid, what is wrong with you?
Who exactly are you referring to? If you meant me, I was actually making a veiled reference to arguing with some of the people on this thread...
: clockworkjoe March 04, 2010, 01:39:38 AM
: Order66 March 04, 2010, 01:40:14 AM
Goddamnit kid, what is wrong with you?
sorry just a sudden involuntary release of dumbness
: Tadanori Oyama March 04, 2010, 01:40:41 AM
What if no one else besides Ross posted on this thread and it's just him arguing at a wall for 5 pages?
You seem to be implying that he wasn't doing that.
: Sean-o-tron March 04, 2010, 01:41:26 AM
Carry on, then.
: Mckma March 04, 2010, 01:42:11 AM
What if no one else besides Ross posted on this thread and it's just him arguing at a wall for 5 pages?
You seem to be implying that he wasn't doing that.
Man, I already said this, but I didn't get recognition for it...
: Tadanori Oyama March 04, 2010, 01:46:12 AM
What if no one else besides Ross posted on this thread and it's just him arguing at a wall for 5 pages?
You seem to be implying that he wasn't doing that.
Man, I already said this, but I didn't get recognition for it...
No you did. But the I stole it. From the future. So that it never occurred in the past.
Shinobi!
: Sean-o-tron March 04, 2010, 01:48:18 AM
: Tadanori Oyama March 04, 2010, 01:51:51 AM
: Order66 March 06, 2010, 01:56:06 AM
FIGHTERS ARE BETTER
: clockworkjoe March 06, 2010, 02:00:08 AM
: clockworkjoe March 06, 2010, 02:02:25 AM
: Boyos March 06, 2010, 02:15:56 AM
http://bigassmessage.com/4184aff63
: Order66 March 06, 2010, 02:24:34 AM
http://bigassmessage.com/0af70c140
bigassmessage.com/2dd72f9d0 (http://bigassmessage.com/2dd72f9d0)
AND ALSO
bigassmessage.com/a343c8b55 (http://bigassmessage.com/a343c8b55)
: clockworkjoe March 06, 2010, 02:38:45 AM
: Order66 March 06, 2010, 02:41:51 AM
: Wooberman March 06, 2010, 05:12:07 AM
bigassmessage.com/29295c307 (http://bigassmessage.com/29295c307)
: Kroack March 06, 2010, 11:13:25 AM
Please, Mods.
: Setherick March 06, 2010, 11:51:31 AM
I'm sick of this thread. I don't want to sound like a grumpy old man but this should really be locked.
Please, Mods.
This is the second comment I've received like this in 24 hours. Locking this thread.