The Role Playing Public Radio Forums
General Category => RPGs => : ArtfulShrapnel April 14, 2010, 12:09:59 AM
-
So. I'm actually playing in a game for a change instead of running it. Supers game in the Wild Talents system. The GM is new and (having had really railroady GMs in the past) seems to be trying to avoid jamming a plot down our throats. We were told it would be a supers game loosely inspired by "Heroes", so we should make supers that aren't necessarily four-color "let's fight crime" folks. All good things in theory. However... (you knew that was coming)...
NOTHING IS FUCKING HAPPENING! It's a fucking parade of NPCs. An accurate summary of the plot is as follows:
We were threatened by a guy, then were forced to talk to another guy. We were sent looking for a third guy, who sent us to a 4th guy. He sent us looking for a 5th guy. Then the 2nd guy talked to us again. Then guy #5 showed up out of the blue and talked at us, telling us to go find guys number 6 and 7.
There hasn't been a single task to accomplish other than "talk to the next guy". It has been three fucking sessions lasting about 5 hours apiece.
If you want the longer version:
Myself and the other players begin as normal people who happen to have awesome super powers. A great tradgedy kills the old team of supers, and the police force starts hunting for others. Of course it's us.
They threaten us into meeting with them, act like mysterious douchebags who of course know EVERYTHING about us, then ask us to "join the team"... with no specifics as to what that might entail. When we finally relent, nothing happens. No missions, nothing. I grasp at the one straw of plot that I've noticed about supers going missing.
Next a shadowy figure from the "resistance" approaches us, mind controls us, shows off how much he knows about our powers, then asks us to 'join the resistance... again with no implication of what that might entail. We're sick of being dicked around so we say no. The attempt to convince us drags on for about two hours. We finally leave and follow our old trail about some villains who might know something.
Then we met an NPC hero who told us to go talk to another NPC hero, who told us to go talk to an NPC villain, who told us to not talk to an NPC super. This marked the end of session 2.
In session 3 we were accosted by jerk #2 again. He mind controlled us into having a conversation. (like, seriously. He mind controlled someone into walking two blocks so he could talk to us in a dramatic location) In this conversation he again asked us to "join him" with no specifics as to what that would mean. He tells us to talk to another NPC after another lengthy attempt to convince us (at this point we fucking hate him because he keeps mind controlling us, which is a dick move). Then the NPC we were supposed to not talk to shows up out of the blue and tells us to go talk to another guy... End of session 3.[/color]
So my basic issue here is that the GM seems actively opposed to anything happening. Every pointless conversation leads to another one. Anytime we try to do something one of the NPCs shows up and talks at us for a while. We didn't build crazy psychopath heroes, so we can't just start killing people... but that's the current game plan. My other plan is to explain this to the GM and see if he takes it well...
What does RPPR think I should do?
-
Oops. Accidental double post. Is there no delete here?
-
Why are you still playing? Player revolt! Kill the officers and elect new ones from the common ranks. Someone needs to step up and be the GM because whoever is behind the screen at the moment isn't doing the job.
-
A dick-ish move would be to just start killing people to force things to happen...
-
don't talk to the next guy is what i would recommend
-
don't talk to the next guy is what i would recommend
Yeah... I'm starting to feel that might be best. The issue comes when he does something dickish like mind control a member of the party and force them to talk to him. And the character in question is like a ghost or something that can't be targeted. Like tonight. :(
-
Try to get a real meeting with the mind controller or join the resistance to get to him. Then kill him. If you kill him, message sent. If he kills you , game over and you can start a new one.
-
Have you tried speaking to the GM about the lack of fun? Anybody around the table spoken up and said: "This sucks"?
-
Try to get a real meeting with the mind controller or join the resistance to get to him. Then kill him. If you kill him, message sent. If he kills you , game over and you can start a new one.
ooh. I like that one.
I think I will try the "hey dude your game is getting dull and you're turning into the GM you hate" approach first.
I find it odd to play in a game where the GM doesn't solicit opinions at the end. I thought that was kind of a normal thing, especially in the first few sessions of the game. :/
Have you tried speaking to the GM about the lack of fun? Anybody around the table spoken up and said: "This sucks"?
That's basically my "plan A". Plan B is now to try and kill his GMPC resistance/villain guy.
-
That's basically my "plan A". Plan B is now to try and kill his GMPC resistance/villain guy.
Have you gotten as far as Plan C, mass PC murder/suicide?
-
I guess plan A is the best choice. I know I would rather hear about disatisfaction from the players rather than an NPC's murder that I might not figure out why it happened.
But look on the bright side, maybe the GM will let you kill him anyway after your conversation.
-
has there at least been some violence
-
That's basically my "plan A". Plan B is now to try and kill his GMPC resistance/villain guy.
Have you gotten as far as Plan C, mass PC murder/suicide?
Isn't that ALWAYS plan C? I didn't even feel the need to mention it. :)
has there at least been some violence
Not with any result. We tried to take some potshots at his mysterious mind control guy, but he was an illusion or some shit so it didn't work. Nothing more fun than being held in place by a guy you can't influence in any way....
-
has there at least been some violence
Not with any result. We tried to take some potshots at his mysterious mind control guy, but he was an illusion or some shit so it didn't work. Nothing more fun than being held in place by a guy you can't influence in any way....
I don't think in-game violence is gonna solve this: you need real life violence. I foresee a hail of dice and the face of a disliked GM in your future.
-
has there at least been some violence
Not with any result. We tried to take some potshots at his mysterious mind control guy, but he was an illusion or some shit so it didn't work. Nothing more fun than being held in place by a guy you can't influence in any way....
I don't think in-game violence is gonna solve this: you need real life violence. I foresee a hail of dice and the face of a disliked GM in your future.
The sad part is, I think the guy has potential. He seems to recognize good and bad GMing in other people, but he can't see the same traits in himself. He even left his old gaming group and struck into the world of GMing because he had a sudden revelation (after playing with a bunch of other groups) how badly his original GM was doing. This is after years of gaming together. Yet now, he's repeating the same exact mistakes that drove him away. I wonder... does a player inevitably become their first GM?
Perhaps I need to give him The Talk. The one where you explain to a new GM the truth about a GM's role in the game. That the GM is not the most important person at the table, and that the game is about the GM sacrificing his own ego to create a world in which the players are the main characters. I think he is GMing from the perspective of a player, and still thinks that the GM is God and Protagonist wrapped into one.
Not sure how he'll take that. >_>
-
If you think that he just doesn't know what he's doing than you have a pretty simple solution: record the game and make him listen to the audio. Relistening to myself has thrown alot of my choices as a GM into a different light for me.
-
Make shit happen.
Take a stand.
Think out of the box.
Do something unexpected.
Derail yourself.
Stop talking and start laying down search patters, begin gps coordinating, go torture the information out of thugs, etc...
-
Do you guys even have any powers of your own? I wasn't really clear on just what your PCs can do.
I mean, if you've got some decent abilities and there's a whole group of you than kick in a door, take over a building, and establish your own kingdom in the middle of downtown. And wrap tinfoil around your heads to keep out the mind control.
-
I love the tinfoil idea. Next session all your characters should be wearing tinfoil hats. The GM should let that block the mind control because it is so cool!
-
OR you could learn him some Game Mastering Essays,
or atleast refer him to the RPPR Podcast about shitty GMs or w/e episodes you think will open his mind.
Or you could run a one shot, same characters but before the start of this game- sort of a prelude background kind of deal and just totally SHOW HIM WHO THE BOSS IS !
The Seppuku idea is pretty great too.
Fuck him up!
-
OR you could learn him some Game Mastering Essays,
or atleast refer him to the RPPR Podcast about shitty GMs or w/e episodes you think will open his mind.
Or you could run a one shot, same characters but before the start of this game- sort of a prelude background kind of deal and just totally SHOW HIM WHO THE BOSS IS !
The Seppuku idea is pretty great too.
Fuck him up!
He doesn't want to listen to RPPR
That podcast is some shit.
-
Just tell him you would love to see some action. I am thinking it sounds like he is trying to lay a bunch of groundwork for a epic campaign of some kind... which if he is new might be a lot to chew off at first. Or not, depending if he is like a writer or something.
Basically just tell him you are interested in seeing him realize his plot, but that you would like to see some action. I bet he's planning something where you establish a lot of inter relationships between factions, players and NPCs (sort of like in the first season of Heroes) before he ends the season with a big action scene or multi-scene war type thing.
-
Do you guys even have any powers of your own? I wasn't really clear on just what your PCs can do.
I mean, if you've got some decent abilities and there's a whole group of you than kick in a door, take over a building, and establish your own kingdom in the middle of downtown. And wrap tinfoil around your heads to keep out the mind control.
We've got an ecclectic mix of powers. My guy can control light and turn it into matter, my girlfriend's character turns into some kind of boogeyman hellbeast, another player has telepathy, and the last member is a teleporter with sweet ninja skillz.
As for the storming the city idea... we could do it, but it would be out of character. This is a group of pretty hardcore roleplayers, and the idea of doing something so blatantly character-violating just rubs us the wrong way. Things are getting pretty bad though... we might have to go there to get anything to happen.
If you think that he just doesn't know what he's doing than you have a pretty simple solution: record the game and make him listen to the audio. Relistening to myself has thrown alot of my choices as a GM into a different light for me.
Actually, we HAVE been recording all the game sessions, but he hasn't asked for the recordings yet. I'm planning to hand those over tonight when I talk to him about how things are going. Hopefully it'll impact him as it did you.
OR you could learn him some Game Mastering Essays,
or atleast refer him to the RPPR Podcast about shitty GMs or w/e episodes you think will open his mind.
Or you could run a one shot, same characters but before the start of this game- sort of a prelude background kind of deal and just totally SHOW HIM WHO THE BOSS IS !
That's what I'm hoping to do, verbally. I've referred him to RPPR several times, and suggested some reading (uncle figgy's list and such) but he hasn't read any of them. I think he still feels he's above that because he's enjoying the game so much that it must be good. Hence the point about "a GM's place in the game" that needs to be driven home. Maybe once he realizes he doesn't have it all figured out he'll be more willing to do some studying.
Just tell him you would love to see some action. I am thinking it sounds like he is trying to lay a bunch of groundwork for a epic campaign of some kind... which if he is new might be a lot to chew off at first. Or not, depending if he is like a writer or something.
Basically just tell him you are interested in seeing him realize his plot, but that you would like to see some action. I bet he's planning something where you establish a lot of inter relationships between factions, players and NPCs (sort of like in the first season of Heroes) before he ends the season with a big action scene or multi-scene war type thing.
That is a good thought. It's kind of where we thought things were going too. Then he revealed that next game is "the climax" and that we will probably be wrapping up in two sessions. I am going to suggest that he try and introduce some extra layers of story to maybe give us at least %50 action-y gaming to go with our sitting around and talking.
Thanks for all the advice. Some of it I had already considered, but hearing it again helps me feel that I'm not being a douche by pointing this stuff out.
-
We've got an ecclectic mix of powers. My guy can control light and turn it into matter, my girlfriend's character turns into some kind of boogeyman hellbeast, another player has telepathy, and the last member is a teleporter with sweet ninja skillz.
Those are some pretty awesome powers. I can see how breaking character might be uncomfortable for you and I hope that you also see my point that staying in character is not comfortable either.
Both you and your characters are being abused by your GM and unless something changes you will continues to be abused. You need to show somebody on the doll where the bad gamer master mind controlled your PC.
It sound like you've tried most of the reasonable solutions and it's progressing to the point that you either have to take in game action or more drastic real life action. Intervention style.
-
Those are some pretty awesome powers. I can see how breaking character might be uncomfortable for you and I hope that you also see my point that staying in character is not comfortable either.
Both you and your characters are being abused by your GM and unless something changes you will continues to be abused. You need to show somebody on the doll where the bad gamer master mind controlled your PC.
It sound like you've tried most of the reasonable solutions and it's progressing to the point that you either have to take in game action or more drastic real life action. Intervention style.
True that. We'll see how the intervention tonight goes. I'm hoping to meet up and talk game, then play Arkham Horror for the first time. (To make the trauma of being told about game seem insignificant by comparison)
-
It sounds to me that the fault doesn't lie so much on the GMs shoulders but on the players. Surely if you guys had given across a good idea of what you want to do then he would of acted on it, no?
I'd reccomend having 10 minutes where you ask him to not have any input what so ever and work out amongst yourself your characters motives in the next 12 hours and what they want to do. You then form a very basic semblence of a plan of what you want to do. Then you tell the GM this in as few sentences as possible.
From what you've said it sounds to me like this is roughly what you want to do, correct any mistakes.
"We want to learn the fate of the previous lot of supers. To do this we want to find an old villain of there's. We wish to follow avenues to get to this 'person'"
Then have a few ideas, of your own and not of the GMs, in how you would do this within a city. Examples would be chasing crime lords up the ranks as it were.
I know what it feels like to be rail-roaded into not only plots but situations you don't feel your character would be in. If you can't break that cycle by giving him one clear 'thrust' of action then he is beyond saving. Some people just shouldn't run games.
-
Basically you should go fuck bitches and get money.
-
Wisdom.
-
Truer words were never spoken.
-
or atleast refer him to the RPPR Podcast about shitty GMs or w/e episodes you think will open his mind.
"Fight Me Or Give Me A Quest" would be a good one to start with.
-
It sounds to me that the fault doesn't lie so much on the GMs shoulders but on the players. Surely if you guys had given across a good idea of what you want to do then he would of acted on it, no?
This is a good point, but as I'd mentioned before, we have given him some strong "we want to do this" pushes. We started trying to investigate these missing supers, and the corruption in the police department. They have led to dead ends because they weren't part of his original plans. When the GM says "you find nothing" in response to every question, it tends to dead-end an investigation pretty fast. Our options to collect information was to start torturing people at that point, which would be especially illogical in the case of the police since (a) they're police and (b) we don't even know if there is overall corruption yet. That and we aren't really "torture-y" heroes. Yet.
After talking to him, he basically didn't know what to do, so he had the trail end because he didn't have anything prepared. I've explained the concept of "three quest monté" to him (the quest is ALWAYS along the route the players take) and he seems to realize how to handle things better in the future.
As should be obvious by now, I talked to him the other night. He genuinely seems to want to change. We're going to try again with a strong "we want to do this" statement in game and see what happens. I've referred him to some good podcasts and guides. Uncle Figgy's Guide to Good GMing, the "Good Gamemastering" and "Bad Gamemastering" episodes of RPPR, and the "Fight Me or Give Me a Quest" episode. I've also referred him to the "How to run a good investigative game" thread on these forums, which had some great advice in it.
-
Ah, I guess my little tirade was more denial on my part. Denial that another GM could put players through the same ordeal as I had playing in a 4th ed. D&D game. My apologies; I understand fully how annoying it is when you're trying to fight your way out of rail-roading.
-
Ah, I guess my little tirade was more denial on my part. Denial that another GM could put players through the same ordeal as I had playing in a 4th ed. D&D game. My apologies; I understand fully how annoying it is when you're trying to fight your way out of rail-roading.
Completely understood. Unfortunately railroading is far more common than one might hope. :(
-
Having only had this happen to me once, I can't comment with any depth on solutions. I can, however, tell you that in that one instance, our spontaneous group solution of paranoia and delusion definitely salvaged the fun for a few of us.
The basic plot of the game was that we were all mid-level nobles in a kingdom that being politically destroyed by another and we uncovered the plot by literally stumbling onto a body. That was the first and only death for two gaming sessions. The rest was political intrigue.
But in the third session, one of the NPCs made an off-handed remark about a noble woman who was involved in the plot, calling her a witch. He meant it as a generic insult, but one of the other players latched onto it and started looking for evidence that she really was a witch. Some of the other players caught on, and soon our characters were convinced that they weren't just saving the kingdom from political upheaval, but from the Vast Eternal Forces of Darkness.
The GM got frustrated when, instead of weedling information out of NPCs about the political crap, we started torturing them and trying to get them to reveal their blackened corrupt souls so we could dispatch them in the name of goodness. But after a while, he stopped trying to debate us into behaving the way he thought we should and just accepted that our characters were convinced Evil was afoot. The fact that we weren't actively trying to ruin his story line helped. In fact, we continued chasing the conspiracy he had developed, we just changed our characters motivations for doing so and were a lot more over-the-top in our actions. The game plot moved on in spite, or because, of the handful of us who went off the rails, and even the players who weren't "acting up" still had fun trying to keep us in line.
-
I was running into this same issue during a current D&D campaign I was playing in. It was a city-based game, which the DM was using as an excuse to parade "entertaining" NPCs in front of us. Luckily, the players helped push him into more action, but it still made for a rough few sessions.
It's largely an issue of pacing and preparation.
1) The GM doesn't have a good idea of how to pace the game. Most of the time, the GM thinks things are going to take longer to play out than they actually will.
2) As a result of the bad pacing, the GM doesn't prepare nearly enough. If they don't have good improv skills, this results in the stand-still you described above.
Anywho- hope everything works out for you. Let us know about how the next session goes.
-
I find I end up preparing a little and still not getting to it all... damn role-playing is getting in the way of my story!
-
Just had the a session. Things were better. Not great, but better. We actually got to do things, mostly players arguing with each other and making overly complicated plans. (typical "getting ready to attack a guy" stuff).
The GM managed to avoid shoving many NPCs in our faces, and we ended the session in a room full of Triads and Yakuza, disguised, when the lights have just gone out. We need to get information out of one of the Yakuza guys, but we also need to make sure that nobody else knows we're involved because our "boss" at the police turns out to be involved with the Yakuza and Triads.
He also handled a bit of a curveball we threw him quite well, the first improvisation I've seen from him. He expected us to attack the mobster at his home, but we decided to wait for him to leave and attack him at a meeting with another gang. (So that if anyone died it could get blamed as gang violence.) He threw together a meeting and a location on the fly that were a bit generic (top floor of an office building, meeting over territory with a rival gang) but certainly not bad.
Overall he's got some work to do in terms of taking command of encounters (as in "hey. We're in rounds now. Everyone shut up and player 1 declare first.") and narrating the results of things. He spent a bit too long conferring with the technopath, such that the rest of us were left to bicker amongst ourselves for 15 solid minutes (!) at one point. And he stopped for 5 or 10 minutes at a time to draw overly elaborate maps for encounters that could easily have been run narratively. (The teleporting ninja trying to sneak through a house that had guards in it. Drawing the map and explaining it took longer than running the encounter.)
He also still doesn't think to ask for feedback after game. (My "endgame" pitch is remakably similar to Ross'. "So. What did you like? What didn't you like? Is there anything you want to see more or less of?") I think he's missing a chance to learn a lot from his first self-written campaign by not inviting input from the people playing in it.
I have faith in him now though. He's shown that he's willing to learn and change, and most of the problems he's having now are a result of being inexperienced and nervous about GMing. Apparently telling him "we're not having fun, you should let the players do something" was a good tactic.
-
Good to hear things changing, sometimes you need to be firm.