Moving from D20

[vthings]

Want to move away from D20.  It's going to be rough to talk my friends into it.  I can already say Eclipse Phase is totally out of the question, too much "new" to learn for a group that never bothers with the fluff.  So I'm sticking with the fantasy genre, as it will probably help ease the transition best.  I need a system with rules that cover how to do all the things, I need something similar to what they're used to.  I don't need narrative systems and like, they barely bother to come up with names for their characters, they're more interested in their stats and how much damage they can put out than anything else.  For real, I tried giving them plot and failed hard.  When I gave them 10 foot room with an orc guarding a treasure chest they loved it. 

So we're keeping it nice and stupid for now.  I want to angle them into a position where they pick up some better habits and maybe start thinking of their character as a character and not how they can game the system to maximize dps.  They've never played with RP'ers so they don't know what to do.  They're computer gamers.  Something more open and less confined by class.  I think more choice will make them have to think "alright, so what do I WANT to actually play?"  If they realize that they need some sort of concept and aren't handed one, maybe they'll come up with an idea and even develop some sort of attachment to their toon.

When I first learned about D&D as a kid I made characters before I knew the rules, I just made stories.  And in that first group that worked because they were all creative kids like me.  That was a long time ago and I don't know those guys anymore.  My current friends are great guys and I love them, they just haven't ever had to think about story before.  They play computer games and board games and most of them are engineers (some of you just went "ah yeah I can see that")  When I listen to RPPR's actual plays I frequently pause so I can heave a big sigh of longing.  Even the player who makes himself into the hooded stranger who sits in the corner with his back to everyone is more than what I've been able to squeeze out of my players.  I ENCOURAGE them to try to rip off an anime character they love.  Even Naruto if that's what floats their boat.  No dice.  I'm fighting an uphill battle all alone against an enemy that doesn't seem to know there's a war.

So help me out here.  I think the first step is to break them out of D20.  And to be honest, they're all sick of that system.  They say "I wanna do this but then I can't."  So I need something that will let them do the thing and not gimp them in combat, which is what they're really afraid of.  Suggestions?

[Flawless P]

It just kinda sounds like they don't really want to role play.

Have you ever gone an entire session without fighting?

There are occasions where we go the entire game without a single combat, it's all just RP and fluff.

It doesn't seem like a system specific issue.

However I have had some success with Call of Cthulhu bringing some of the more passive players out of their shell.

As for alternative fantasy games... I've never played one, we roll 3.5/Pathfinder for our fantasy needs, an I am currently working on a Wild Talents hack for a gritty fantasy game.(A point buy system will do what you are trying to do best. They can buy up a combat skill and have plenty of points left to "flesh" out their character.)

Really though I'm not rightly sure what to say.

[vthings]

Well they do.  At least they say they do.  When I'm a player in someone else game they start to get a little more into the RP side, following my lead.  But as the GM I can't really lead them on like that.  Honestly I think a lot of it is just being nervous or embarrassed.  I tell them to use 3rd person narrative but it doesn't seem to help.

I dunno.  Maybe some Cthulhu one-shots might help them switch gears.  A modern character requires less creativity to come up with as it's something we live and breath every day.  Creating a back story for a gnome requires a bigger leap than creating a back story for a cop or a frat boy.  I think I'll try that on them and see what happens. 

I think I need new players, hah.

[Flawless P]

That is basically how I feel about it.

Modern games help with immersion. It's much easier to pretend to be a cop than a barbarian.

I think that should be your first step.

[Vega Baby]

I'd suggest Reign if they do want to stick with the fantasy genre.  It runs on the One Roll Engine, so it isn't too hard to pick up, though the mechanics are significantly different from D20.  It has plenty of crunch, point-buy chargen rather than class-based, and plenty of mechanics that help encourage RP without really forcing them to.   It's also a system that assumes that the PCs are political leaders of some sort within the setting, which is a role that demands some level of thought beyond 'kick down the door, kill everything that moves, steal everything that isn't nailed down'. ...well, usually at least.

While doing a modern game probably wouldn't be a bad idea if you think part of the problem is coming up with concepts, depending on the group Call of Cthulu is not necessarily the best choice.  I'd say it would depend on if you know your players can realize when a fight isn't going in their favor and retreat.  Additionally, based on the min-maxers I play with, most dislike horror-based games simply because they like winning and being able to defeat things, which tends not to happen in horror.  I'm not saying that it wouldn't be worth a shot, but you'll definitely want to run the idea of running such a game past them, and make sure they know what to expect from it.

I will say that, in my experience, most of the min-maxers I've played with focus on optimization do so because they don't want to risk dragging the team down or allowing someone to die, rather than out of some desire to 'win the game'.  It's just a suggestion, but a game like Mutants & Masterminds or FATE, where death only happens when the players agree that it's dramatically appropriate, would make them feel freer to design characters that are interesting concepts rather than just mechanically sound.

[vthings]

Well they became min/maxers because we had the most amazing min/maxer I've ever seen play with us for a long time.  He could role play, had confidence shining like the light off his bald head, and played to win no matter what it was.  Even when he was trying not to.  Scorpion and the frog I guess.  I think he kinda colored a lot of their impressions of RPGs since as a player he dominated and as a GM he decimated.  They look for the angles now because they don't want to just be along for the ride like they were most of the time when our old buddy played.

Thanks for the comments.  I don't know much about FATE.  If it's anything like Heroes, no thanks, hah. 

[Teapot]

I'd say don't walk away from Eclipse Phase so quickly.It's got a few things going for it that your group might like. Firstly they can all grab all the books for free right now. Secondly, it's insanely friendly to Min-Maxers and yet they still can't "break" the game. ("Ha! I've putted so many points into murder I can kill anything." "You see a flickering screen, an image leaps onto it as the sound goes lower than even your enhanced hearing can follow. Now kill your team mates.")

The thing with the world/fluff is that while there's a bunch of it, you can dumb it down pretty quick. 11 years ago evil AIgods murdered everyone on Earth and we're all scared of them coming back. You're in the space X-files/DG/BPRD trying to keep them out, space is weird.

They'll pick up on some of the setting details naturally as they go along, even if it's limited to Scum Swarm=Canhazgunz and PC=Must behave letc.

[Vega Baby]

FATE is just the name of a rules engine used in a variety of games.  There's an updated, setting generic ruleset called FATE Core that was kickstarted recently and will be released at a pay-what-you-want price some time in the next few months.  Systems out now that use it include Spirit of the Century(which is available for free online here), a 1920's era pulp adventure game, and the Dresden Files RPG, an urban fantasy game based off of the books of the same name.  The reason I mentioned it off-handedly at the end of my post was because it leans a bit toward narrativist mechanics.

Specifically, the narrativist mechanics come from the characters' Aspects.  Basically, every character has Aspects, which are short phrases that indicate something important to the character.  This could be a facet of his personality, a relationship he has with someone, or an object he holds dear.  Aspects can be invoked in order to give you a bonus to your roll at the cost of a Fate Point, as this important thing gives you strength.  They can also be compelled against you, causing you some kind of problem.  This earns you a Fate Point.  Essentially this means that FATE is a sort of 'narrative bartering' system, where you can agree to take narrative punishment early in the story in order to help ensure success later.

It's a very interesting system, but it may not suit your tastes or needs in this situation.  I do recommend checking it out at least.

[vthings]

Thanks for the all the replies.  I'd seen FATE's kickstarter but the size of the book kind of waved me off of it.  If it was completely new and had a ton of rules it wouldn't really work for my needs.  Eclipse Phase's fluff is what made me pass on it.  I like it well enough, there's just a lot to it.  The Pathfinder campaign world is too much fluff for my group, hah.  I'm trying to talk them into a setting they already know from pop culture, but it's been a hard sell for some reason.  They see their time as valuable, and rightly so, and aren't very interested in learning a new setting for something they aren't going to take very seriously anyway.  We did Dragon Age for a minute but that system is terrible.  Even more random than D20, save or be boned for the entire fight spells being tossed at you at level 1 with save difficulties of 17 to be rolled on 3d6...  Yeah DARPG is kind of a mess.  Beside, DA2 ruined the franchise for us, not that it was great to being with.

I hate how negative I'm coming off on these posts.  But it has got me thinking.  I just need to sell them on a one-off and get them to actually try it.  Mikey might actually like it.  Thanks for the input, guys.

[Gorkamorka]

GURPS might be your thing.
It's an non setting system that gives your guys all the min/max they want.

You can have a look at the simplified version here. (GURPS Lite LINK).  It's free to download.  If you like what you see you can get Dungeon Fantasy (unfortunately not free at all).

You other option is Dungeon world.
It's a rules light DnD themed system that started as an Apocalypse world hack.  It drives on story mechanics rather then physics mechanics.

[Teapot]

Just cut the pretense and go to War Hammer Fantasy Skirmishes?

[vthings]

Just cut the pretense and go to War Hammer Fantasy Skirmishes?

We already play board games. 

GURPS looks fun. 

[Gorkamorka]

You should allso check out Warrior, Rogue, Mage. LINK.
It's free to Downlode as well.  Realy simple fantasy dungeon crawl system.