Grognards.txt

[clockworkjoe]

I don't understand how the base attack bonus improvement mechanics affect the way you roleplay your character.

If you build a scholarly guy who has never swung a weapon in his life, why are you likely to do so in the course of a game?  Nobody's making you whack that kobold in the beans, buddy.

I wish I could find the thread but this guy was just enraged about how D&D 3E was killing his roleplaying because of the BAB. He just went on and on about this old scholar guy who never practiced any kind of melee fighting YET could swing a staff better than a lower level fighter.

Thats the funniest thing about the anti-4E crowd. Most of their arguments apply to 3E as well

ITS A VIDEO GAME: When 3E came out people compared it to Diablo especially feat trees etc. 3E grognards call 4E a WoW clone.

IT RUINS ROLEPLAYING: 2E AD&D players hated 3E skills and feats for forcing characters into rigid roles and shit. Also they hated that demihumans could take any class. 3E grognards hate skill challenges and the limited set of skills in 4E.

IT RUINS MY GYGAXIAN NATURALISM: The Challenge Ratings stuff in 3E was hated by people who loved random encounter tables just as 4E people hate how 4E have multiple versions of the same monster for different levels

and on and on

[ristarr]

One of my google quotes for the day applies here:
A conservative is a man who believes that nothing should be done for the first time.
  - Alfred E. Wiggam

All we need to do is change it a little:

A grognard is a gamer who believes that nothing should be done for the first time.
 

[Maze]

Non-Player-Characters are much, much worse than Player Characters in this regard. The entire game falls apart entirely if you imagine the world as a dynamic place that moves while the players aren't watching it.

Whole armies of high level and experienced minions die instantly in a sandstorm, the economy is a clusterfuck that's balanced entirely on game mechanics and attempts in no way to try to make sense, environmental penalties and rules make it so entire civilizations in less than pleasant sunny climates will wither away the moment the player characters set eyes on it.

The game falls apart thematically and sensibly unless you assume everything is a static mobile for the players to kill and loot, tucked away in an ethereal void or quantum probability cloud until within Spot/Listen check proximity of the Player Characters in which case they coalese in media res in a state that would fall apart if the Players were inclined to actively watch the state for more than a few weeks.

I think this is interesting, I don't think he understand the mechanics are there to facilitate the combat, not be the end-all arbiter of the fantasy universe. I'm always amazed when I see DM go through the trouble of statting-out their characters as a player-characters. There's nothing wrong with that, but I find it pointless.

Whether he's a peasant, lord or merchant, he doesn't need stats unless he intends to be directly oppose the players in their lust for blood and money. Even then, if it's not direct combat, just make his Insight stat as you go or something.

Oh, as far as the economic system paragraph... Welcome to D&D buddy, where the monsters possess the majority of the riches in the world.

[clockworkjoe]

no edition of D&D has had a believable economic system

[Kroack]

I personally think that all this 3E 4E bullshit is what makes d&d dead to me. I just don't really enjoy normal d&d games anymore.

[Boyos]

You never hear these complaints about CoC rule books, or Synnibarr!

[malyss]

There's still some BAB advancement in 3E - the worst progression eventually gets +10 BAB by level 20. But the point was the guy bitched about how his immersion was RUINED because he HAD to improve his BAB.

The guy is a moron then. If that actually ruins your game, go play solitaire.

But my main point stands - 3E is no better at building a gimped/disadvantaged PC than 4E and it's stupid to even argue that a system is bad because it doesn't let you build a gimped PC in the first place - D&D has never been about that and if you want that either house rule it or play GURPS.

Criticizing 4E on this basis is incredibly fucking stupid.

For many classes, simply stats-wise, it can be harder to build a gimped character in 3E than in 4E. A 3E fighter with a low strength is still effective based solely on their BAB increase. A 4E fighter with low strength is at larger disadvantage against an equal level opponent. And 4E lets you retrain as part of the rules - there is no provision in the rules for a 3E character that made a poor choice.

All systems have points of criticism, but it is all situational and at the end of the day, it is still just a game. If you aren't having fun, play something else. It's like these people are mad at the game because they don't like to play it. It would be like eating a Snickers, when you had the chance to choose a Coffee Crisp, and then bitching about how a Snickers wasn't a Coffee Crisp. Whose fault is it that you chose something you don't like?

It seems like these people play D&D, but what they really want to be playing is GURPS... but they still play D&D when there is an alternative that they can easily choose.

The discussions we have had on balance and other issues are at least related to the game we basically prefer to play, and we are talking about tweaking things, not playing completely different games. I mean, I'm not upset with D&D because it doesn't let me play a giant fucking robot... and someone who is, has bigger problems than their game choice.

They remind me of people who went to see Godzilla, and then complained that all the movie was about what a giant lizard stepping on a city...

[ethan_dawe]

I can't stand Grognards, but 4e sucks because it's a video game..... okay I'm kidding.

I've played everything but the original white boxed set, and tons of other games besides. For fun, well, you can have fun with any game system if you are having a good time with your friends. I played lots of 1st edition AD&D and we laways used piles of house rules to get around the junk in there, but we had fun. Played some 2nd edition, and it was fun to, but not such a huge improvement. Played some 3rd and really liked the updates. Liked the changes made to 3.5. Very annoyed about the re-purchase thing though. Currently running 3.5 and enjoying it despite issues. Playing 4E, refuse to buy it based on cost/need thing. Eventually I got the PHB and MM 60% off at a book-store closing though :-) 4E is fun to play. Great teamwork things going on, and easier to teach a new player I bet. Still, feels mecahnically different in some ways, but hey, who cares.

Edition wars are silly. You can argue about mechanical supperiority but in the end, any game can be fun, no matter how stupid it is. Marvel Super Heros comes to mind.