Precognition

[buddy]

was referred here by Ross & Co.

My question was how to handle "seeing the Future" by PCs. What's the more elegant expression?

as it stands now, I can give the hero mental clues about what's to come. Related NPC actions, mostly.

My issue was knowing PC actions. I can't. I don't know exactly where the game is going so - how do we see it?

How do you make the ability, a powerful one, useful to the extent that the PC gains an advantage - one that doesn't smash the game to bits?

Considered asking the player a question, but that question could overturn the game. Thought to create a vision of some probable future action that gave the players impetus, but that action might not happen, based on player decision. Thought about giving the player control of future gameplay ("this happens now"), but that declaration would require a complementary game that had a place for an action that would be nothing more than a guess. Limiting the vision to an NPC action would be workable, but it shifts focus to an NPC over the PCs, which is problematic.

How would or do you handle Precognition in a game? I'm currently running Mutants & Masterminds Third Edition, which allows the power. And I'm finding it an ugly thing I'd rather ignore.

Help. Any advice the Forum can offer would be considered Good.

"A child is born that usurps the king's wickedness!"

explain that ..............

[Wooberman]

The major thing to think about when providing players with insights into the future is to never give the whole game away and instead give them aspects of the plot or events almost like you're letting them look at one bullet point of your session notes.

If the big bad guy is encountered in a nuclear power plant, have the vision be a flash of a Radiation Hazard sign. If his plan is to make the Power plant melt down then give the player a vision of the surrounding area bleak and devoid of life.

Precognition is one of those things that can easily break the game and should be handled with care and restraint. It also matters what your concept of fate is within the game. Can predicted events be avoided? If not, how will the party manage to save the day? etc.

Simply put, The PC's are really the unknowable factor here and should represent as this when it comes to the visions. It could be that the visions are actually insights into other realities. For example, the vision of one of the heroes kicking down a door to a warehouse and being blown away by a trap or peppered to death by the waiting goons with automatic rifles still establishes the fact that there is a bomb or the bad guys are expecting an attack and are ready with overwhelming force.

How powerful are the visions in your game and more importantly what does the player with this power feel it should do?

[Tadanori Oyama]

I have a large personal dislike of Precognition powers so keep that bias in mind as I answer.

For most games I tend to run improve heavy games and seeing the future isn't too difficult to deal with in those. You give the player an image or a concept, even a short scene, which is (at the time) totally meaningless and use it like you would a suggestion in an improve show.

When I'm not doing improv I tend to give people vague answers, the sort of thing I imagine would be visible to someone from a distant perspective of events. Often I an intentionally obtuse in the answers I give people, in an effort to discourage them from taking such powers.

I recommend asking the player why they want the power. If they want to emulate a specific character from a media than try to do that since the media will already have some kind of method to deal with the ability. If they want to as a short cut to plot, then disallow the ability.

[Capitalocracy]

Of course the media has a way to deal with the ability. It's called a writer. The character can't see the future and then choose to shoot himself in the face or move to China or whatever to keep it from happening. Bottom line is, if a character wants precog abilities, he'll have to accept some railroading to make sure those abilities actually work.

[buddy]

The major thing to think about when providing players with insights into the future is to never give the whole game away and instead give them aspects of the plot or events almost like you're letting them look at one bullet point of your session notes.

If the big bad guy is encountered in a nuclear power plant, have the vision be a flash of a Radiation Hazard sign. If his plan is to make the Power plant melt down then give the player a vision of the surrounding area bleak and devoid of life.

But that "aftermath" scene doesn't happen if the players prevent the meltdown .........

Precognition is one of those things that can easily break the game and should be handled with care and restraint. It also matters what your concept of fate is within the game. Can predicted events be avoided? If not, how will the party manage to save the day? etc.

Simply put, The PC's are really the unknowable factor here and should represent as this when it comes to the visions. It could be that the visions are actually insights into other realities. For example, the vision of one of the heroes kicking down a door to a warehouse and being blown away by a trap or peppered to death by the waiting goons with automatic rifles still establishes the fact that there is a bomb or the bad guys are expecting an attack and are ready with overwhelming force.

How powerful are the visions in your game and more importantly what does the player with this power feel it should do?

Good question, in regard to "how powerful/accurate" the visions. I have no clue. I want the ability to be effective for the hero, but not "game-breaking". Thus, I thought to make the visions focus on NPCs around the central event - "side-tracks" that depict bystanders & bad guys doing things AROUND the key event, without actually revealing what's to come completely.

My question is: would this be enough to make the power effective? I don't want to short-change the hero at the expense of a crisis.

Thanks for your advice, Woob - but I need further guidance.

[buddy]

I have a large personal dislike of Precognition powers so keep that bias in mind as I answer.

For most games I tend to run improve heavy games and seeing the future isn't too difficult to deal with in those. You give the player an image or a concept, even a short scene, which is (at the time) totally meaningless and use it like you would a suggestion in an improve show.

When I'm not doing improv I tend to give people vague answers, the sort of thing I imagine would be visible to someone from a distant perspective of events. Often I an intentionally obtuse in the answers I give people, in an effort to discourage them from taking such powers.

I recommend asking the player why they want the power. If they want to emulate a specific character from a media than try to do that since the media will already have some kind of method to deal with the ability. If they want to as a short cut to plot, then disallow the ability.

Thanks, Tadanori.

"Vague" was my 1st option.

Example;

Plot: the Sentinels are reactivated & attack all "threats" (any superhero or supervillain)

Sub-Plot: The Sentinels track mutant activity & media reports of "superhuman" action, in order to capture/kill their targets

sub-Plot: The Kingpin of Crime (Wilson Fisk) & Emma Frost are behind the Sentinels (Frost tries to verbally-convert powerful supers to her thinking of a "more-ordered world")

Sub-Plot: analysis of captured Sentinel tech reveals 2 names - an engineer & a Pentagon supervisor (both names are anagrams for Fisk & Frost), with both real men being dead & buried (the caskets hold the bodies of slain superheroes replaced by android drones serving the criminal masterminds)

Sub-Plot: several superhumans are held in suspended-animation aboard a satellite HQ formerly belonging to a hero team, but now redesigned & occupied by the Sentinels

Sub-Plot: the PCs aren't the last resistance - there is a team of supers on the Moon's Blue Area, a large team of street-level heroes bounding around the U.S., and a scattered team of international supers - the greater resistance has a plan, based on flawed Sentinel propaganda, to strike at the enemy (deathtrap)

Sub-Plot: the most powerful supers (Franklin Richards, Silver Surfer, Jean Grey, ect.) have been taken to another dimension by Franklin to avoid "the worst-case scenario" (a powerful super destroys most of human civilization to defeat the Sentinel army) - the issue here is Franklin keeps taps on everything the PCs do & can end up "Deus Ex Machina" (as Franklin can be)

sub-Plot: the Sentinels have dimensional-hopping tech that allows them to target & assault any supers-base they find across dimensions - Asgard, Olympus, the Astral Plane, ect. - nowhere is safe from the Sentinels' adaptive weaponry onslaught

so. you can use Precognition to reveal aspect of this kind of game (this is most of my Sub-Plots), but, what aspects of the above scenario would you feel safe revealing without giving up your whole game? Keep in mind it's future events, not past.

The whole thing, based on how I craft NPC Sub-Plots, made my head hurt. Again - HELP. "Vague", for all intents & purposes, needs a clearer definition here.

[buddy]

Of course the media has a way to deal with the ability. It's called a writer. The character can't see the future and then choose to shoot himself in the face or move to China or whatever to keep it from happening. Bottom line is, if a character wants precog abilities, he'll have to accept some railroading to make sure those abilities actually work.

I was near here. Rail-roading. But, it's so ugly. Plus, you need the GROUP to accept the method. I can't force one player down the road & ignore the others. They would sense the motion & rebel. I know this because I've had it happen in a game. Thinking "I can add this scene & make it happen" led to one player thinking "No. That scene wont happen - I'll do whatever to prevent it. I wont be Rail-Roaded."

This is my problem. Players & Precognition. How does one move the group forward along the lines of one Player's vision of "what's to come"? If Rail-Roading is the answer, how is it done so the group sees the greater plan as a natural progression of gameplay?

Thanks for your input, Capital-

[buddy]

i suppose the easiest method is "Red Herrings": give the Precog visions depicting action around the key event & have them chase after that. It happens, but has no direct correlation to the greater event impacting the game. Except in combat situations, where "seeing the future" can anticipate actions.

I looked for superheroes with Precognition & found NONE. Odd. Even the Silver Surfer, former "herald-of-Galactus" could only see the past & current events.

Looking at "Madame (Cassandra) Web", I found an NPC who used Precognition to aid heroes like Spider-Man. She led them to crimes, without revealing the outcome. Perhaps that's it.

Precognition leads heroes to crime & crisis, without revealing the outcome: thus & so crooks mass at thus & so place for an unknown crime. My issue is, if the PCs counter the crimninals' activity early-on, how do we arrive at the future event?

It's a pickle.

[clockworkjoe]

[buddy]

Thank you to everyone that provided advice & comments. I'm feeling much more confident about the topic of "seeing the future". You folks have been great! Thanks again.

[QuickreleasePersonalitY]

unconscious precog:  potential in game effects:  combat bonuses, 'cannot be surprised', 'cannot be stunned', etc.  potential out of game effects: allow player to nullify actions, skip actions/scenes



conscious precog:  other potential out of game effects:  GM gives the player the stats and/or write ups of the NPCs they encounter and/or the scenes and/or the adventure

either way, i'd recommending there being some sort of important cost for the ability -- increases awareness by the Things from the Dungeon Dimension, gives the user extreme bad luck, does health damage, limited # of uses, becomes a patsy for a crime, etc etc

you could even be artsy with the precog and say, after a campaign or an adventure or scene or interaction that it didn't really happen but was really the character's precog in action

[Teapot]

How do they precog? That can change how/what you give them.

[beowuuf]

My idea for precognition is the fact that the instant you look at the future, you're changing the future. If you stand and concentrate on a vision, you aren't moving in the world, and so the future you are seeing is not the one that will now occur. Sure, if you were sitting at home or reading in a library anyway its minor, in the middle of a battle where every millisecond counts, that's a far quicker ripple with more consequence.

So a character is not only trying to do something impossible like have memories of events that haven't happened yet, but they are then being punished by having the mind splitting experience of having contradictory memories of things that haven't happened yet in their brain.

So to start with I would imagine that makes such visions be detached the moment they begin, with the side effect of pain and disorientation, and so only an 'impression' of both likely futures occuring. It allows you to hint at clues, and in a battle maybe hint at an action.

The player can slowly get control of how long they can stand the pain to actually see a proper vision, and after that be able to start gaining the ability to throw their mind more accurately to a point in time in future. Although the further you go, the more even your pause and likely use of the knowledge will have made waves and so the worse such mental trauma will be.

It seems a nice echo of the quantum physics 'the observer changes the observed' and also explains why all prophesy is so damned convoluted and riddle like - short visions and deliberate obfuscation to not instantly invalidate the vision.

Anyway, that's how I'd do it. It can be a powerful ability in combat or for plot hints, but you automatically build in a fudge factor for why the future turns out differently if the players then do something strange. You can blame the original player, or the other player's foreknowledge, as derailing the time. Just make sure there was still a benefit.

And you can have personal cost be the disorientation in battle, up to the  potential for the player to be permanently damaging their mind and suffering mental health issues. Those can be tweaked as the game goes in order to provide a buffer against abuse. And even side quest opportunities to relief their mind, or learn to control their powers more.

And if the players can precog, then you can set them against an enemy precog later once they get a good handle on their abilities to further buffer the seen future as opposed to how the players play the game. I'm thinking ideas like in Push where you end up with a cat and mouse game.

[Teapot]

Well, if they know the future because they came from there, they have to account for the butterfly effect as they change the past, with some things like earthquakes still going off. So they have more an idea or big picture than exacts.

If they get dreams and potents then it's all symbols and gibberish anyway.

If they look to the direct future it's always changing as they look and change their plans so it's unclear.

Do they look to alternate futures?

Is there free will in your game? Oddly, by being a dice RPG there kind of is, or at least chaos as rolls are unknown.

What do they want from the power? Do they want to win bets on sports games? Do they want to Bill and Ted problems away? If they just want you to create garbled messages for them it's not a problem.

You can try a thing where they can look for certain things and be there, arranging a meeting on a street where the IRA is about to explode a car or knowing when a fire alarm will go off etc.

[ckenp]

A great use of the Precognition power I've seen is in Dark Heresy: it gives a bonus to dodge and parry while active, like seeing what the opponent will do just before they do it. It doesn't work at all in a story busting capacity.

As for the seeing the future, I like the idea of split time lines occurring across multiple parrallel universes, so what they see may not be what they empirically experience, just what happens in one possible stream of existence.

You could also play the "Final Destination" angle where they cheat the foreseen outcome, but the end result occurs in other ways.