Author Topic: Hacking Red Market question.  (Read 48679 times)

Gorkamorka

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Re: Hacking Red Market question.
« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2016, 10:02:29 AM »
I have been trying to figure out what sort of setting would allow for the profit system to be played in a world with classic DnD characters.  So a world where a mage can throw fireballs around and a priest can be a substitute Jesus and heal the sick in person.

Warriors, and Roges are not a problem, you can slot them right into the Profit system.  But I can't figure out a world where a magic user who break the laws of physics and a priests that can make miracles would ever be in the position of having to make their own retirement plans.

Any ideas?

For Mages? Easy. Welcome to the AD&D Dark Sun magic system.

Dark Sun, what is : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Sun

http://www.athas.org/

http://darksun.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Sun_Wiki (mostly 4th ed which is not ideal)

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Dark_Sun

Wizards in Dark Sun (ie Defilers) : https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Canon:Dark_Sun#Classes

Quote
Wizards

Arcane spellcasters draw their power from life itself. Most wizards draw their power from plants. There are two basic types of wizard:

Defilers, who draw their power quickly, killing plant life around them, and significantly sterilizing the soil those plants were in, rendering it impossible to grow new plants there for centuries. This defiling of the land is why the once healthy planet is mostly a desert. Very powerful Defilers are able to draw power from creatures as well. Powerful Defilers (such as Dragons) can kill people in this manner.

Preservers, who draw their power more carefully, enabling them to cast their spells without destroying plant life, but sacrificing spellcasting power. Very powerful Preservers are able to draw power from creatures as well. Powerful Preservers (such as Avangions) have this ability, but they will not seek to kill with it.
Most ordinary people on Athas don't know of the difference, and treat all Wizards as being Defilers, responsible for the destruction of Athas.

Sorcery is almost unheard of, though it has been noted in dragon-descended individuals. (Paizo version only)

The Veiled Alliance, an underground organization of preservers (though membership is not entirely limited to that class) with resistance cells in all city states and most major villages, is bent on the destruction of the defiling Sorcerer-Kings (low-level dragons themselves).

A handful of very rare (or mutated) Wizards can power their spells from other sources - the Sun, or the Cerulean Storm itself.


Priests

Quote
Priests[edit]
Unlike most D&D settings, there are no 'real' deities. It is also not possible for someone on Athas to become a deity because the spiritual conduits that allow them to draw power from their worshippers do not exist on Athas. However, people worship, and receive power from other things:

Elemental Clerics draw their power from elemental sources and frequently come into conflict with one another.
Paraelemental Clerics draw their power from the paraelements (Sun, Silt, Rain, and Magma). These priests are fewer in number than elemental Clerics and often have similar abilities as the two closest elements. (Imagine a spectrum, similar to colors, that goes: Fire-Sun-Air-Rain-Water-Silt-Earth-Magma-Fire-Sun-...).
Druids, who draw their power from Nature (or what's left of it) and are often the most vocal and violent opponents of Defilers.
Templars, who are granted their power by the Sorcerer-Kings themselves.

Enjoy

Yeah.  Darksun was the solution I came to as well.  I ran it a bunch when it just came out and it fits well.  I might throw out a hack for RM darksun.  But I should probably finish my GURPS Dark Sun hack first.

BUT.  It's not classical DnD, not even close.  I still want to find a solution for doing classical DnD in RM.  The closest I have come is Underdark/Undermountain based campaign.  That is Adventurers in Waterdeep going into the Undermountain to gain their fortune or die trying.  It would work, but it's lacking the 'Us VS Them' that the Loss and Rescission provide.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2016, 10:07:09 AM by Gorkamorka »
Gorkamorka (Fridrik)

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Re: Hacking Red Market question.
« Reply #46 on: June 19, 2016, 10:31:05 AM »
Ok I have been giving Cyberpunk/Shadowrun some brain time.

Here is a thought I came to.

Cyberpunk needs a HEAT mechanic.  As in how much the AUTHORITY is trying to get you. 
My solution to this is the following.  Classical Red Markets has 3 types of mental stress.  Detachment/Stress/Trauma. 

HEAT would be one more.  But in stead of Testing against 'Self-Control' it would test against a new skill:  'Trade-Craft'

Trade-Craft would allow you to do illegal things in such a way that you are harder to identify.  You shoot some one in public, but make sure you are wearing clothes that disguise your features, hight and other identifying features.  As well as knowing how to avoid cameras and such.  But if you do some really dodgy or public stuff you get HEAT anyway.  You just get less if you make the roll.

You then have to pay hackers and crooked authority figures bounty to heal your HEAT between sessions.  Get them to loose camera images or cancel APBs
Crack/Crumble/Break would then be things that can not to me made to disappear.  A Crack would put you on the watched list.  A Crumble would put you a warrant on your ass and a Break is a shoot on site with a price on your head.

What do you think.  Workable?


On a side note.  In classical cyberpunk more and more cyber-ware would grate down your detachment.  Because the more more metal you become the less you care about the meatbags and finally you sub come to cyberpsychoses and go stabby stabby on everyone.
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Re: Hacking Red Market question.
« Reply #47 on: June 19, 2016, 04:26:52 PM »
I was thinking of something similar for an espionage style version for maintaining your cover where the player would gain benefits from maintaining their cover and then they would choose if they were willing to spend/ break it to create an immediate effect/ go towards their values.

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Re: Hacking Red Market question.
« Reply #48 on: June 20, 2016, 12:35:24 PM »
I was thinking of something similar for an espionage style version for maintaining your cover where the player would gain benefits from maintaining their cover and then they would choose if they were willing to spend/ break it to create an immediate effect/ go towards their values.

I don't recall exactly, but the new World of Darkness, Demon: The Descent has a mechanism for exactly this.

Granted in Demon I think the "going loud" option allows the player to use unworldly powers and all angels immediately know where they are and I think a strike team is released by the God Machine.

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Re: Hacking Red Market question.
« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2016, 05:28:13 PM »
To be fair I was just ripping off Night's Black Agents anyway  :)

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Re: Hacking Red Market question.
« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2016, 06:43:52 PM »
Those sound like great ideas, for both the cyberpunk and espionage variations. I particularly like having it as a spendable resource, like the Roach can apparently do in Red Markets now.
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Re: Hacking Red Market question.
« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2016, 10:18:53 PM »
Alright, so here's my take on a Red Markets/Profit setting hack/variant. The idea is to channel the feeling of life under oppressive regimes like North Korea, use resource scarcity through rationing and to inject nerd tropes through time travel.

The State arose following the glorious Revolution, eclipsing all resistance of the ideologically backward and counter-revolutionary, and merging all previous nations into a single, global mega-state under a planned economy, all until the loving gaze of the loving figurehead, the Leader. All citizens of the State are equal, all economic activity is planned and executed meticulously by the fine men and women of the Ministry of Resource Allocation. One world, one system, one economy, one people, one ideology. Utopia has been achieved. All citizens of the State know this.

To suggest otherwise is not done. Or rather, those who do it are rarely heard from for much longer. Someone else is found to be living in their apartment; their spouse is found to have been married to another person. The State is pernicious and omnipresent, its presence reaching into every aspect of your life.

And yet, though none would publicly declare it, the resources each citizen receives from the Ministry are not enough for their needs. Because what you say you need is different from the Ministry says you need. And where there is need, there is opportunity and there is profit. There is a black market that will provide you with these things. The question is how to earn it.

Everyone has memories of the world before the Revolution, before the markets were controlled, certain goods and services were outlawed. Everyone has lost something to the ever-present march of Progress. Everyone was promised a utopia that only partially manifested. Everyone had someone they loved go up against the wall when the Revolution twisted and suddenly they were counter. The past is fertile ground, full of things that people want and need. This is where you dive, through illegal and tightly-regulated technology. You reach into the Revolution to retrieve lost things, to pull contraband from the past into the present; you secure local time-loops so a bereaved lover can relive the last night they spent in their paramour's arms; you give the counter-revolutionaries a glimmer of hope by providing them with proof that things can be/were/will be different, better. But you must do so secretly, because time travel is an illegal technology - why, the State asks, would you want to look at the past when Utopia is today? To suggest that this is no so is sedition.

Allocation: At the start of the game, the MRA gives you what it tells you that you need, that you deserve. This is your ration book, essentially. This is how much you have to live on for the session and also how much you must be seen to have; if your neighbour sees you suddenly bringing home armfuls of expensive whiskey, they'll mention it to someone who'll mention it to the Ministry. Naturally, it is not enough. You have a need that the Ministry will not - cannot - provide.

The Market: Commerce is illegal under State law, but most citizens dabble in the black market to make up the gaps in what the MRA provides. This is where you go to meet the needs the MRA does not meet, and this is your "enclave". It might be as small as the room above a bookshop, or a covert speakeasy in a cellar, or perhaps it is an extensive network of sewer tunnels. This is where people sell veal from cellar-reared calves, bathtub whisky, hand-drawn pornography. And this is where Divers ply their trade. Market is one of the variables of a job - it represents the raw value (monetary or emotional) of what is being dealt with; saving a wedding ring from being cremated in one of the mass graves of the Revolution, stealing cargo of a product no longer manufactured as the State deems it decadent.

The Dive: You have a rare, valuable talent - the ability to take jaunts back in time. So far the longest unassisted Dive has gone for one day  before the Diver "rubber-banded" back to the present day. At the Market, Divers operate crews that use time machines to assist their natural talents to allow for longer dives, to bring larger things back with them, to bring others back with them. This is where you earn your money.

The Risks: Because of course it can't be that simple. Diving is not an easy task. If nothing else, the past is a dangerous place; the Revolution was a shooting war (several, really) where many strange weapons were deployed, where many things not found in the State roamed and roared and spewed fire across the loyal soldiers of the Cause. What's more, there are risks inherent in changing the past; much was lost in the Revolution, so pilfering boxes of ammunition for a depot moments before the artillery shell hits causes little change, but saving the life of a martyr will.. draw attention. Mankind is not the only thing to have evolved the ability to move in four dimensions; the bravest and most ambitious Divers soon find themselves.. hounded. In-game, Ripple is the other variable in a job - essentially, this is the "demand/risk" element of the job. The higher the Paradox rating, the greater the historical change completing the job represents, thus the riskier the job will become. (Everyone who has time travel wants to kill Hitler, no-one wants to deal with the fallout of killing Hitler.)

Paradox: This is the "refresh" mechanic; instead of Adaptability representing the ability to have just what you need, it represents the ability to edit the scene to your advantage; having a gun under the table you just sat down at, having already cut the wires, reaching behind the dumpster to pull out a spare magazine for your weapon. (And yes, it's stolen from Continuum.) Your Adaptability stat represents how many times you can SAFELY invoke a Paradox, how easily you keep track of your own personal timeline and can be relied on to, say, later (relative to your perspective) go back and duct-tape a gun under the table five minutes before you grabbed it. Invoking paradox AFTER that point can be done, but automatically puts a point on a new Paradox track which works like a Humanity track (Cracks, Crumbles and Breaks represent different levels of compromise to your personal timeline; at a Break, you are devoured by a Hound, or kill your grandfather by accident and erase yourself, or otherwise commit a paradox huge enough to destroy yourself and significantly disrupt those around you) Certain high-Ripple jobs carry an inherent Paradox value just for completing them. [Need an idea for how to reduce Paradox]

What I Would Have Done: Everyone has the idea of what they would do to change the past, to change the course the Revolution took so that it didn't create the corrupt, incompetent, murderous State that exists today. Who they would save, who they would kill, how they would do it differently, what they would do if they were in charge. This is a Diver's retirement; they save up to get enough time and power on the Machine that would allow them to permanently jump into the past and make a huge, meaningful change. To create their own Utopia. To change reality. To become the new Dear Leader of a new State after a new Revolution - nothing changes for anyone else. The Dive continues. (Because while zombie movies are how we talk about totality, time travel stories are how we talk about unintended consequence, about how good ideas can go back. And because every dystopian regime began life as a Utopian ideal until it met reality.)

Thoughts?

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Re: Hacking Red Market question.
« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2016, 07:20:16 AM »
How do you deal with the past being in flux? If taker eqivalents retire and have conflicting goals? Is there some sort of in setting agreement. Although rereading your post it seems everyone gets an alternative universe to live in.

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Re: Hacking Red Market question.
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2016, 08:10:37 AM »
Alright, so here's my take on a Red Markets/Profit setting hack/variant. The idea is to channel the feeling of life under oppressive regimes like North Korea, use resource scarcity through rationing and to inject nerd tropes through time travel.

The State arose following the glorious Revolution, eclipsing all resistance of the ideologically backward and counter-revolutionary, and merging all previous nations into a single, global mega-state under a planned economy, all until the loving gaze of the loving figurehead, the Leader. All citizens of the State are equal, all economic activity is planned and executed meticulously by the fine men and women of the Ministry of Resource Allocation. One world, one system, one economy, one people, one ideology. Utopia has been achieved. All citizens of the State know this.

To suggest otherwise is not done. Or rather, those who do it are rarely heard from for much longer. Someone else is found to be living in their apartment; their spouse is found to have been married to another person. The State is pernicious and omnipresent, its presence reaching into every aspect of your life.

And yet, though none would publicly declare it, the resources each citizen receives from the Ministry are not enough for their needs. Because what you say you need is different from the Ministry says you need. And where there is need, there is opportunity and there is profit. There is a black market that will provide you with these things. The question is how to earn it.

Everyone has memories of the world before the Revolution, before the markets were controlled, certain goods and services were outlawed. Everyone has lost something to the ever-present march of Progress. Everyone was promised a utopia that only partially manifested. Everyone had someone they loved go up against the wall when the Revolution twisted and suddenly they were counter. The past is fertile ground, full of things that people want and need. This is where you dive, through illegal and tightly-regulated technology. You reach into the Revolution to retrieve lost things, to pull contraband from the past into the present; you secure local time-loops so a bereaved lover can relive the last night they spent in their paramour's arms; you give the counter-revolutionaries a glimmer of hope by providing them with proof that things can be/were/will be different, better. But you must do so secretly, because time travel is an illegal technology - why, the State asks, would you want to look at the past when Utopia is today? To suggest that this is no so is sedition.

Allocation: At the start of the game, the MRA gives you what it tells you that you need, that you deserve. This is your ration book, essentially. This is how much you have to live on for the session and also how much you must be seen to have; if your neighbour sees you suddenly bringing home armfuls of expensive whiskey, they'll mention it to someone who'll mention it to the Ministry. Naturally, it is not enough. You have a need that the Ministry will not - cannot - provide.

The Market: Commerce is illegal under State law, but most citizens dabble in the black market to make up the gaps in what the MRA provides. This is where you go to meet the needs the MRA does not meet, and this is your "enclave". It might be as small as the room above a bookshop, or a covert speakeasy in a cellar, or perhaps it is an extensive network of sewer tunnels. This is where people sell veal from cellar-reared calves, bathtub whisky, hand-drawn pornography. And this is where Divers ply their trade. Market is one of the variables of a job - it represents the raw value (monetary or emotional) of what is being dealt with; saving a wedding ring from being cremated in one of the mass graves of the Revolution, stealing cargo of a product no longer manufactured as the State deems it decadent.

The Dive: You have a rare, valuable talent - the ability to take jaunts back in time. So far the longest unassisted Dive has gone for one day  before the Diver "rubber-banded" back to the present day. At the Market, Divers operate crews that use time machines to assist their natural talents to allow for longer dives, to bring larger things back with them, to bring others back with them. This is where you earn your money.

The Risks: Because of course it can't be that simple. Diving is not an easy task. If nothing else, the past is a dangerous place; the Revolution was a shooting war (several, really) where many strange weapons were deployed, where many things not found in the State roamed and roared and spewed fire across the loyal soldiers of the Cause. What's more, there are risks inherent in changing the past; much was lost in the Revolution, so pilfering boxes of ammunition for a depot moments before the artillery shell hits causes little change, but saving the life of a martyr will.. draw attention. Mankind is not the only thing to have evolved the ability to move in four dimensions; the bravest and most ambitious Divers soon find themselves.. hounded. In-game, Ripple is the other variable in a job - essentially, this is the "demand/risk" element of the job. The higher the Paradox rating, the greater the historical change completing the job represents, thus the riskier the job will become. (Everyone who has time travel wants to kill Hitler, no-one wants to deal with the fallout of killing Hitler.)

Paradox: This is the "refresh" mechanic; instead of Adaptability representing the ability to have just what you need, it represents the ability to edit the scene to your advantage; having a gun under the table you just sat down at, having already cut the wires, reaching behind the dumpster to pull out a spare magazine for your weapon. (And yes, it's stolen from Continuum.) Your Adaptability stat represents how many times you can SAFELY invoke a Paradox, how easily you keep track of your own personal timeline and can be relied on to, say, later (relative to your perspective) go back and duct-tape a gun under the table five minutes before you grabbed it. Invoking paradox AFTER that point can be done, but automatically puts a point on a new Paradox track which works like a Humanity track (Cracks, Crumbles and Breaks represent different levels of compromise to your personal timeline; at a Break, you are devoured by a Hound, or kill your grandfather by accident and erase yourself, or otherwise commit a paradox huge enough to destroy yourself and significantly disrupt those around you) Certain high-Ripple jobs carry an inherent Paradox value just for completing them. [Need an idea for how to reduce Paradox]

What I Would Have Done: Everyone has the idea of what they would do to change the past, to change the course the Revolution took so that it didn't create the corrupt, incompetent, murderous State that exists today. Who they would save, who they would kill, how they would do it differently, what they would do if they were in charge. This is a Diver's retirement; they save up to get enough time and power on the Machine that would allow them to permanently jump into the past and make a huge, meaningful change. To create their own Utopia. To change reality. To become the new Dear Leader of a new State after a new Revolution - nothing changes for anyone else. The Dive continues. (Because while zombie movies are how we talk about totality, time travel stories are how we talk about unintended consequence, about how good ideas can go back. And because every dystopian regime began life as a Utopian ideal until it met reality.)

Thoughts?

I like it.  When can we play?
Serious.  I don't see any flaws right of the bat.  It needs work of course and there are unresolved things like healing paradox.  But as a start I don't see any inherent flaws.

On a side note.  Reading this made me think that you could use Red Markets to play a really depressing realistic version of Paranoia.
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Re: Hacking Red Market question.
« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2016, 08:45:33 AM »
How do you deal with the past being in flux? If taker eqivalents retire and have conflicting goals? Is there some sort of in setting agreement. Although rereading your post it seems everyone gets an alternative universe to live in.

It's.. bleaker and more cynical than that.

First: The State has a monopoly on time travel tech which is why Diving is illegal; it's how the State maintains its presence in the present. It's how the secret police erase counter-revolutionaries so secretly. Ministry agents ensuring key Revolution events occur as they should is one of the problems Divers encounter on higher-value jobs. So while you can commit minor changes fairly easily, they're ensuring that the the broad strokes come to pass - the State still exists, the Dear Leader still at its head.

Second: You'll note I kept the terminology vague and this was by decision; the global state has extended to the point that it's functionally nameless, the revolution like most revolutions goes through multiple phases and changes who is the ally and who is the enemy. Another shift in the revolution is just another shift in the end. A regime is a regime, a revolution is a revolution. The details change but the broad strokes stay the same.

Finally: every idealist has a tyrant in them. So a retirement "changes" the past only so much that Hitler becomes Stalin becomes Mao becomes Pol Pot.   Think about what Aaron would do if he was given absolute control over a global regime; he'd absolutely do what he thought was best for the people under his control but soon things would start catching fire...

I like it.  When can we play?
Serious.  I don't see any flaws right of the bat.  It needs work of course and there are unresolved things like healing paradox.  But as a start I don't see any inherent flaws.

On a side note.  Reading this made me think that you could use Red Markets to play a really depressing realistic version of Paranoia.

Thanks! As you say, I still need to think of a way to burn off Paradox. Fitting with the idea that time travel is a dissident act, you might burn it off in your Dependent-esque vignettes through actions that are loyalist; publicly reaffirm Party loyalty, working for the State bureaucracy etc. I also want to work in a way to encourage saving by making visible wealth dangerous.

Yeah, depressing Paranoia was definitely the sort of feeling I was going for. The idea originated in the role of farmer's markets in North Korea (where commerce is illegal) combined with the fact that time travel stories are illegal in China (because it suggests that the regime can be changed, that an alternative might be better etc) and I love reading about how insane North Korea is in general.

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Re: Hacking Red Market question.
« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2016, 08:56:49 PM »
That's a super cool time travel idea.
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Re: Hacking Red Market question.
« Reply #56 on: July 24, 2016, 11:11:35 AM »
Had a conversation with a customer about the Anime/ Manga Gantz and now I have ideas.

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Re: Hacking Red Market question.
« Reply #57 on: July 25, 2016, 05:26:44 AM »
Has anyone given thought to hacking the dice mechanic ?

Here is what I have been thinking about.  "It does not need to be a D10  and both dice do not need to be the same type."  *Mind blown*

Changing the dice type would have some interesting effects on the probability curve and the spending rules.

---

Say you want skills to be less important and make the players have to spend even bigger to guaranty results.   
Change the system to D12s or D20 if you want to be extremely mean .
So on a D12 the success rate of 2 point skill role goes from 59% (D10) to 57,5% and down to about 55% on a D20.

In the same way if you change to a D8 the success rate of the same 2 point skill goes up from 59% (D10) to about 61% and to 64% on a D6.

So if one wanted a more powerful feel to this system.  For example to play a DnD feeling campaign you could change to D8s. 

---

Then there is the really messy stuff.  Having different dice for the red and black.
If we make the RED a D12 and the BLACK a D10 then the whole probability curve changes.
A base role goes from 50% to about 42% success rate and our  2 point skill role goes from 59% to 50%.  You need a 2 point skill just to make average.

And going in the other direction changing the RED to a D8 and the BLACK to a D10. 
A base role goes from 50% to about 60% success rate and our  2 point skill role goes from 59% to about 69%.

So one could use changing dice type to create buffs/de-buff magic system effect, for example. Or use it to represent character class traits and flaws.  Or Injures. 

Enjoy.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 05:30:33 AM by Gorkamorka »
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Re: Hacking Red Market question.
« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2016, 05:26:32 PM »
Whoah, cool ideas for the dice issues, Gorkamorka. Maybe I could let players use a Black d12 if they achieve a circumstantial advantage. Though generally speaking, it's probably better overall game design to count all bonuses and penalties using the same scale of plusses and minuses (you don't want the old Wold of Darkness problem where you could adjust difficulty by either changing number of successes or changing target numbers for success ).
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Re: Hacking Red Market question.
« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2016, 06:01:00 PM »
Whoah, cool ideas for the dice issues, Gorkamorka. Maybe I could let players use a Black d12 if they achieve a circumstantial advantage. Though generally speaking, it's probably better overall game design to count all bonuses and penalties using the same scale of plusses and minuses (you don't want the old Wold of Darkness problem where you could adjust difficulty by either changing number of successes or changing target numbers for success ).

You can do some neat things with the profit system by changing the dice type. 
If for example you want to make the game harder you just use D12s in stead of D10s.  What you have then done is decreased the value of all skills by 1/6th and made players have to spend more resources to make a roll.  You basically make them go through rations and ammo faster.

You could also use this to drop static skills completely.  Make all skills be a resource to spend like GumShoe and  lower the dice type at the same time.  D8s for example.

You could even just use a red an black D6 and make skills a spendable resource and we have more or less recreated GumShoe. :-)

About mixing dice.
I like it for a magic system.  One sort of magic affects red dice (Say clerics) and another set of magic affects black dice (Say sorcery).  So they can buff and de-buff independently of each other and make interesting effects happen in the game.  A cleric and a sorcerer together could buff up the fighter to a black D12 and a red D8. That would give you a 2/3 chance of success on an unskilled role and  74% success on a 2 point skill. 

You could then have spells change the dice of a particular skill for a particular number of rolls.  "Charm person" gives you a RED D6 for a single persuasion roll.  "Giant strength" gives you a BLACK D20 for damage only for one encounter.

What other spell could we make with this?

It's also a way to make magic items. the magic sword rolls a D12 for damage (BLACK ?).  Or the magic gun rolls a d12 for hit (RED ?) with 10-11-12 being head.
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