Author Topic: A Study in the Logic of Gaming  (Read 142452 times)

Setherick

  • Administrator
  • Cosmic Horror: 1d10/1d100 SAN loss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2583
  • Economies of Scale
    • View Profile
Re: A Study in the Logic of Gaming
« Reply #165 on: September 17, 2009, 10:00:12 AM »
An unlikely band of adventurers...

We've all heard it before, but why?

I can't find a damned reason for these bastards to care about each other and neither can they. Even when one's head is on the executioners block.

What are some good methods of intriguing these players to group together?

Well, I think it starts with avoiding the common "how the hell do I get these guys together" cliches (like 5 adventures walk into a bar and the mysterious man in the corner says...) and make it so they have to generate their characters with the idea that they know each other member in the group to begin with. Whether or not they like one another is another matter, but they know one another first.

In mid-game, though, you might have to come up with some scenario where the players must depend on each other and if not their own character will die. The PCs might not like one another, but are they willing to sacrifice their own lives in order to rid themselves of a fellow party member? This would also work well if you just want to fuck with your players and, in that case, I recommend reading Sartre's No Exit.
"Something smart so that I can impress people I don't know." - Some Author I've Not Read

malyss

  • I dream in graph paper lines
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
  • Gimme some sugar baby.
    • View Profile
Re: A Study in the Logic of Gaming
« Reply #166 on: September 17, 2009, 03:13:01 PM »

Except that to get ready for that roll, he has already made thousands of dice rolls. He has been pulling out those dice that rolled two 1's, which means he has not rolled 3 1's in a row yet. It may be a 1:8000 chance, but if he's just rolled 7,999 dice without getting that result.... what's bound to happen?

Add to that the fact that no single dice is truly random. A single extra µl of plastic on one side could weight it slightly towards a certain result. So by gathering the dice that roll 1's more often, he is in fact biasing his rolls TOWARDS 1.


1 in 8000 applies to the single die, not the culmination of rolls.

But the second point is interesting - let's say the bias makes it 1:7996 - still really good odds he won't roll another 1 with that particular die.

I do however like the completely "rational-gamer" (oxy-what?) method of dealing with poor-rolling dice. What would be better would be to have your GM adopt them as their Official Evil NPC Combat Dice. But good luck convincing a GM to do something that nice for their players...

ArtfulShrapnel

  • I dream in graph paper lines
  • ****
  • Posts: 361
    • View Profile
Re: A Study in the Logic of Gaming
« Reply #167 on: September 18, 2009, 01:57:28 PM »
... What would be better would be to have your GM adopt them as their Official Evil NPC Combat Dice. But good luck convincing a GM to do something that nice for their players...

Hot damn. I DO like that idea. You win double. :D

1 in 8000 applies to the single die, not the culmination of rolls.

But the second point is interesting - let's say the bias makes it 1:7996 - still really good odds he won't roll another 1 with that particular die.

Here have to disagree. Anytime you start talking probability, you have to consider the whole set. <logicfail="we're assuming for a moment here that probability somehow MAGICALLY enforces odds of things happening, instead of just measuring/predicting them like it does in real life."> If we're looking at dice rolls in isolation, his odds are 1/20, every time. For the group, given that he started his rolling with 1,000 dice, he's increased his odds of NOT rolling a 1 by a measly %0.833 (repeating). </logicfail>

That said, it's all meaningless because there is no magical force running around making sure probability works out. The odds are 1:20 on every roll. Even in magical fantasy probability land, this doesn't work. Just do what makes you feel better about the shitty rolls you're inevitably going to get.

EDIT: Removed my ranty math vomit. Note me or request it in thread if you want to know how this math works out.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 03:28:04 PM by ArtfulShrapnel »

clockworkjoe

  • BUY MY BOOK
  • Administrator
  • Extreme XP CEO
  • *****
  • Posts: 6517
    • View Profile
    • BUY MY BOOK
Re: A Study in the Logic of Gaming
« Reply #168 on: September 18, 2009, 03:46:02 PM »
and you people call me a nerd for googling d20 marijuana rules and posting a few links

Tadanori Oyama

  • Extreme XP CEO
  • *******
  • Posts: 3897
  • The Full Time GM
    • View Profile
    • Full Time GM
Re: A Study in the Logic of Gaming
« Reply #169 on: September 18, 2009, 04:54:38 PM »
Your all nerds. Math has no place in gaming!

xHero

  • I am worth 100 points in GURPS...ladies
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
  • Dorothy: "Fuck it, I'll stay here."
    • View Profile
    • Swing And A Miss Forums
Re: A Study in the Logic of Gaming
« Reply #170 on: September 18, 2009, 05:53:04 PM »
Corn chips is no place for a mighty warrior. ArtfulShrapnel: Sanity check == fail
"Mmm...Franklin Salad: Tastes of 100 dollar bills, semen, and shame!" - APFMT gone terribly wrong... or right. Check out the Swing And A Miss Forums

ArtfulShrapnel

  • I dream in graph paper lines
  • ****
  • Posts: 361
    • View Profile
Re: A Study in the Logic of Gaming
« Reply #171 on: September 18, 2009, 06:08:56 PM »
and you people call me a nerd for googling d20 marijuana rules and posting a few links

I never called you a nerd for that. I was actually thinking of contributing. :) Just have to be careful what I google on a work machine.


malyss

  • I dream in graph paper lines
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
  • Gimme some sugar baby.
    • View Profile
Re: A Study in the Logic of Gaming
« Reply #172 on: September 22, 2009, 09:20:52 AM »
Here have to disagree. Anytime you start talking probability, you have to consider the whole set. <logicfail="we're assuming for a moment here that probability somehow MAGICALLY enforces odds of things happening, instead of just measuring/predicting them like it does in real life."> If we're looking at dice rolls in isolation, his odds are 1/20, every time. For the group, given that he started his rolling with 1,000 dice, he's increased his odds of NOT rolling a 1 by a measly %0.833 (repeating). </logicfail>

That said, it's all meaningless because there is no magical force running around making sure probability works out. The odds are 1:20 on every roll. Even in magical fantasy probability land, this doesn't work. Just do what makes you feel better about the shitty rolls you're inevitably going to get.


Point taken. But are you <b>sure</b> there is no magical force? Certainty is always tricky...

ArtfulShrapnel

  • I dream in graph paper lines
  • ****
  • Posts: 361
    • View Profile
Re: A Study in the Logic of Gaming
« Reply #173 on: September 22, 2009, 01:11:43 PM »
Point taken. But are you sure there is no magical force? Certainty is always tricky...

Yes, I am certain. Take that. :P

A great example of actual gamer logic:
I had some players in a Mage the Awakening game. For those of you not familiar, by the time a character hits the game equivalent of level 10 in this setting, they can basically level a city if they so choose. They will likely explode afterwards, but the damage will be done.

In the early game they ran across a Necromancer mage who was using animated corpses (Life 3, Mind 2, Prime 3, for those who are keeping track) to do his will. They tracked him down to an abandoned McMansion on the edge of town which they detect has been awakened into a sort of malevolent blood house being. (Matter 3, Mind 3, Prime 3). Realizing he was dangerous, but also seeing all the bodies, they made what was at once a brilliant and completely doomed plan.

They called the police. "There are like three or four bodies, we believe he is involved in some sort of organized crime, etc." Squad cars roll in, lights flashing. They knock on the door and present a warrant like good cops. One sneaks around back without a warrant like a bad cop. Five minutes later, while they are investigating the interior, the screaming starts. Gunshots ring out. The characters with Mind sense a strange emotion of joy from the house.

Shock and dismay, the police were not equipped to handle ZOMBIES AND MAGIC. The players are surprised and think I gimped the police to force the party into the house, because "how dangerous can one guy in a McMansion be"?

Five mintues (of game time) later, one of them is using their life magic to try and reassemble a teammate's face, another is using his lightsaber (what else would a geek character with matter/forces/prime create?) to try and tear down the magic circle that the wizard uses to bind the zombies, while the last is desperately firing a machinegun towards the wizard and his zombies to try and keep them too busy dodging to attack.

One character ended up dead (granted, this was planned as he was being forced to retire from the game), another wound up with some permanent scarring and disfiguration, they were all a little scared after that. They managed to kill the guy despite his attempts to escape, but that required a madcap driving expedition in which they accidentally killed a pedestrian.

So now one has a criminal hit-and-run investigation bearing down on them, the others are trying to figure out what to do in order to keep the magic house without having the cops investigate all those dead officers. And at one point someone asks "Why are they so persistent? They already found the cops and their stuff."

Yes. Because that is why the police would be upset about dozens of dead police officers. Their stuff.

~sigh~
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 01:18:08 PM by ArtfulShrapnel »

Tadanori Oyama

  • Extreme XP CEO
  • *******
  • Posts: 3897
  • The Full Time GM
    • View Profile
    • Full Time GM
Re: A Study in the Logic of Gaming
« Reply #174 on: September 22, 2009, 01:30:11 PM »
"We gave them the loot from the dead cops, what more do they want?"

That's a great one. Reminds me alot of any Mage game I'd tried to run.

clockworkjoe

  • BUY MY BOOK
  • Administrator
  • Extreme XP CEO
  • *****
  • Posts: 6517
    • View Profile
    • BUY MY BOOK
Re: A Study in the Logic of Gaming
« Reply #175 on: September 22, 2009, 01:56:13 PM »
Beautiful. Simply beautiful.

malyss

  • I dream in graph paper lines
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
  • Gimme some sugar baby.
    • View Profile
Re: A Study in the Logic of Gaming
« Reply #176 on: September 22, 2009, 03:25:08 PM »
It's all about the stuff.

clockworkjoe

  • BUY MY BOOK
  • Administrator
  • Extreme XP CEO
  • *****
  • Posts: 6517
    • View Profile
    • BUY MY BOOK

Tadanori Oyama

  • Extreme XP CEO
  • *******
  • Posts: 3897
  • The Full Time GM
    • View Profile
    • Full Time GM
Re: A Study in the Logic of Gaming
« Reply #178 on: September 22, 2009, 06:24:23 PM »
Man, put a warning on that stuff, I almost burst out laughing at my desk. The other office staff are looking confused.

clockworkjoe

  • BUY MY BOOK
  • Administrator
  • Extreme XP CEO
  • *****
  • Posts: 6517
    • View Profile
    • BUY MY BOOK
Re: A Study in the Logic of Gaming
« Reply #179 on: January 02, 2010, 05:14:50 PM »
going to sticky this shit