Superhero RPG

[VampireVladd]

I have just listened to the Age of Masks all the way through and first of all, that was an awesome story. I would like to try to run that for my group, but I need a solid easy to use quick Superhero system.  I have GURPS supers, but as I have said before, Even though it will let you do anything, the rules for creating characters are very hard. So I have a couple of questions.

1. Is M&M hard?

There is a couple of copies of M&M 2ed at my book seller for cheap but I don't want to waste money on a convoluted system.

2. Is there a better system than the ones I have asked about?

All help would be great.

[Kroack]

1.) Yes. Very confusing.

2.) Wild Talents or Godlike

[Mckma]

Mutants and Masterminds is complicated, yes, but it is an interesting system and I think it looks like it works pretty well for the d20 system.  From what I've heard about Wild Talents, I would agree with Kroack on going with that, but MM may be worth your while to pick up if you just like picking up RPG systems and it is "cheap" (which is a relative term and it all depends on how much you would want to pay for something you may or may not decide to use)...

[VampireVladd]

Let me add that while I don't like the creation system in GURPS I do like that you don't get experience points and levels, you just get more points to spend as you go on. I feel that is more realistic. But then again that is just me.

[Ryo]

M&M (civilized) is a very good if somewhat generic system. Character building can be complex, but it balances well, unless you really know how to work it and your Gm doesn't.

WT (wild west) is more a wild and crazy, over the top type of game. The rules aren't hard, but the book makes them hard to figure out. The system doesn't balance well, but a GM can trump just about anything a character can make.

In M&M each character is going to be close powerwise to one another. Assuming the GM makes sure the built in limits are being used.

In WT characters can vary widely in terms of power and you want to make some houserules or a player can abuse the system badly (hard dice in attack powers).

[siriq]

I found with wild talents after you read the rules twice you can understand what is going on and then can easily explained to other players.  If you know the rules character creations is fairly simple and there is room for alot of fluff and back story.  Like said before you may want to house rule hd and maybe wiggle dice.  They lend themselves to power gaming and hd are inexpensive compared to the benefit.

[ArtfulShrapnel]

I found with wild talents after you read the rules twice you can understand what is going on and then can easily explained to other players.  If you know the rules character creations is fairly simple and there is room for alot of fluff and back story.  Like said before you may want to house rule hd and maybe wiggle dice.  They lend themselves to power gaming and hd are inexpensive compared to the benefit.

Personally, I turned Hard Dice into what I call "Auto Dice". They can be set to any number before a roll, but no two can be the same number. If you have multiple Auto Dice they can, instead of being rolled, count as a single Set that has a height of 0.

Thus, if they are used for a useful ability like "flight" the matched set can be used to auto-activate it so you can fly around at will. It has a similar effect with abilities like regeneration, multiple actions, and generally anything else where the power activating is all that really matters. They still have to be rolled when used for a defends or attacks action, since in those cases rolls must have a height to be effective, and they essentially count as Expert Dice. If you want to auto-hit someone in the head every round, or have a perfect defense that can't be avoided, you'll have to purchase two or more Wiggle Dice, or a Wiggle Die and an Auto Die.

[Kroack]

Let me add that while I don't like the creation system in GURPS I do like that you don't get experience points and levels, you just get more points to spend as you go on. I feel that is more realistic. But then again that is just me.

GURPS isn't for everyone, but I think it's less complicated than M&M and creates more interesting characters.

[VampireVladd]

I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest here. Thank you for all of your advice.

[Ryo]

Its not a hornets nest. Each system has its + and -, you just need to decide which one comes closest to your playstyle.

[Mckma]

I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest here. Thank you for all of your advice.

We at RPPR love us some debating!

[clockworkjoe]

In M&M each character is going to be close powerwise to one another. Assuming the GM makes sure the built in limits are being used.

No, this isn't true. Last year, RJ and Tom both ran M&M games that fizzled out because PCs had wildly varying power levels - all were PL 10 but some players were more effective and efficient because they were created by players who knew the rules better.

Any point buy system with a great deal of complexity has this flaw to one level or the other.

You see, there's this topic in game design called system mastery. The term means that a player's knowledge of the game's rules gives him an inherent advantage in the game. For example, in 3E D&D, there are many feats but many of them suck ass - like toughness which gives a flat +3 hit point bonus. Compare this to weapon focus which gives a +1 to hit with a given weapon.

a person with low system mastery would probably take toughness over weapon focus since that gives a higher bonus

a person with high system mastery will take weapon focus because that +1 to hit is much more important than 3 extra HP.


System Mastery is a much bigger deal in M&M than in WT in my opinion.

[ArtfulShrapnel]

System Mastery is a much bigger deal in M&M than in WT in my opinion.

I will wholeheartedly agree with this. My experience with WT is that more experienced players tend to end up with more powers that are cheaper but they do so by stacking tons of restrictions onto how their powers may be used that create opportunities to fuck them over and let other people shine.

There is still room for munchkin-y minmaxing, as with any game, but I feel there is a less humongous advantage to be gained by knowing the system better.

[Ryo]

System Mastery is a much bigger deal in M&M than in WT in my opinion.

I will wholeheartedly agree with this. My experience with WT is that more experienced players tend to end up with more powers that are cheaper but they do so by stacking tons of restrictions onto how their powers may be used that create opportunities to fuck them over and let other people shine.

There is still room for munchkin-y minmaxing, as with any game, but I feel there is a less humongous advantage to be gained by knowing the system better.

Well GM knowledge is important in just about any game. In M&M arrays can be a problem. I'm not sure M&M is that much more complex than WT, but its been awhile since I played M&M.

[infinitejesting]

If you're looking for a different type of superhero game, there's Mutant City Blues.  Essentially, everybody plays superpowered cops who solve crimes dealing with, you guessed it, superpowers.  Character creation is fairly balanced, and the game presents some interesting ideas.

Mutant City Blues lends itself to CSI or Law and Order type games, but I REALLY want to play The Wire, but with superpowers.  Can't find a group though