Author Topic: My Gripe with 4th Ed.  (Read 73865 times)

Murph

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Re: My Gripe with 4th Ed.
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2010, 09:06:11 PM »
The DM did say "Hey stop that".  The wizards wasn't a huge dickhole, so he did.    Still, as the game progressed, the DM was pretty much forced to give the other players more and more powerful items just to keep pace with the wizard.   Hypothetically though, was he supposed to include flying monster in every encounter?  Ensure all fights occur indoors?  Make sure there some "Fuck you wizard" guy in every fight?   Wouldn't it be easier to say "Hey wizards, should be in line with everyone else?"?

There are glitches, but they arn't as huge, generally take two people to do with very specific builds, and so far, have been mostly errataed away.  I mean, it doesn't take a genius to see "Hey fireball has a huge fucking range, and this same level spell lets me get really high up". 

Maze

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Re: My Gripe with 4th Ed.
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2010, 09:08:01 PM »
Glitch? In 4th Ed! Why never! It is the epitome of perfection!

Murph

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Re: My Gripe with 4th Ed.
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2010, 09:09:47 PM »
Glitch? In 4th Ed! Why never! It is the epitome of perfection!
*cough PREERRATABATTLERAGEVIGOR cough*

Akiira

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Re: My Gripe with 4th Ed.
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2010, 09:12:23 PM »
 Wouldn't it be easier to say "Hey wizards, should be in line with everyone else?"?

No because they shouldnt. A wizard is pulling a ball a fire and brimstone from another dimension and shooting it at you with magical energies, a fighter is a man of above average str and con that carriers a sword, which one do you think would win in a fight? Also wizards have to work to get their power in the form of sucking ass at lower levels where fighters dominate.

Murph

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Re: My Gripe with 4th Ed.
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2010, 09:21:44 PM »
 Wouldn't it be easier to say "Hey wizards, should be in line with everyone else?"?

No because they shouldnt. A wizard is pulling a ball a fire and brimstone from another dimension and shooting it at you with magical energies, a fighter is a man of above average str and con that carriers a sword, which one do you think would win in a fight? Also wizards have to work to get their power in the form of sucking ass at lower levels where fighters dominate.

The answer to to whom I think should win in a fight is, if were playing a game, should be we both have an even chance, and the person who has better tactics, and maybe the dice favor somewhat, should win.  The answer shouldn't hinge on "Well are we below level 5?

Why can't everyone shine in all levels?  If I'm playing a fighter, should I pack up my stuff and go home after level 6 or so, since from here on, I'm probably going to suck?  Also, wizards don't suck at low levels.  Maybe at level 1-3, they don't have the staying power of a fighter or the like, but they're still effective.

clockworkjoe

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Re: My Gripe with 4th Ed.
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2010, 09:25:16 PM »
Wouldn't it be easier to say "Hey wizards, should be in line with everyone else?"?

No because they shouldnt. A wizard is pulling a ball a fire and brimstone from another dimension and shooting it at you with magical energies, a fighter is a man of above average str and con that carriers a sword, which one do you think would win in a fight? Also wizards have to work to get their power in the form of sucking ass at lower levels where fighters dominate.

What is funny is that your answer was to do what 4E already does - but in a case by case basis that is quite haphazard

What is telling is that in your solution in the F-14 wizard example was to weaken the wizard class thus bringing the classes into a closer balance with each other

The problem is that you will have to house rule dozens of spells in a campaign, especially at higher levels in order to keep them even somewhat balanced.  Improved invisibility, summon monster spells, teleport and dimension door spells, charm and dominate spells, gate, spells with no saving throws, and on and on and on.

Any level 1 spellcaster would win a one on one fight most of the time against a level 1 fighter.

Wizards get color spray, sleep and charm person at level 1, which will stop a level 1 fighter dead in his tracks. Clerics can fight decently and heal themselves at level 1. So can druids, plus they get an animal companion.

Also, you might say but spellcasters only get so many spells a day - which is true. But what party continues on adventuring when the spellcasters are out of spell, unless they absolutely have to keep going? Most of the time, they will stop and rest and most of the time you will have to let them or that trick will get real old real fast.

Akiira

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Re: My Gripe with 4th Ed.
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2010, 09:36:59 PM »
hmmm you all raise some good points but what i suppose it all really boils down to is personal preference for how close we want classes to be balanced. I think a wizard being able to fly around casting fireballs at level 5 is more then a bit unreasonable and i also think fighters are bit to weak at higher levels depending on your choice of feats and a few other things. However i still think magic classes should be more powerful on average. So I guess I just feel 4e makes them to balanced and to me the less evil is the obvious unblance of 3.5. There are a few other problems i have with 4e but this is the biggest and i think we are just all gona haft to accept a Modus vivendi on this one.

Murph

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Re: My Gripe with 4th Ed.
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2010, 09:39:24 PM »
Wouldn't it be easier to say "Hey wizards, should be in line with everyone else?"?

No because they shouldnt. A wizard is pulling a ball a fire and brimstone from another dimension and shooting it at you with magical energies, a fighter is a man of above average str and con that carriers a sword, which one do you think would win in a fight? Also wizards have to work to get their power in the form of sucking ass at lower levels where fighters dominate.

What is funny is that your answer was to do what 4E already does - but in a case by case basis that is quite haphazard

What is telling is that in your solution in the F-14 wizard example was to weaken the wizard class thus bringing the classes into a closer balance with each other

The problem is that you will have to house rule dozens of spells in a campaign, especially at higher levels in order to keep them even somewhat balanced.  Improved invisibility, summon monster spells, teleport and dimension door spells, charm and dominate spells, gate, spells with no saving throws, and on and on and on.

Any level 1 spellcaster would win a one on one fight most of the time against a level 1 fighter.

Wizards get color spray, sleep and charm person at level 1, which will stop a level 1 fighter dead in his tracks. Clerics can fight decently and heal themselves at level 1. So can druids, plus they get an animal companion.

Also, you might say but spellcasters only get so many spells a day - which is true. But what party continues on adventuring when the spellcasters are out of spell, unless they absolutely have to keep going? Most of the time, they will stop and rest and most of the time you will have to let them or that trick will get real old real fast.


I agree pretty much exactly.  There is pretty much too much to balance in 3.x.    Thats just looking at whats "core".  Adding splat books and 3rd party stuff is just suicide.

And for the record, even if wizards had a 90% death rate at levels 1-5, it still wouldn't be balanced.  Its like saying rolling for stats is balanced because you could roll high or low.  All that really matters is the end result.

clockworkjoe

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Re: My Gripe with 4th Ed.
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2010, 09:44:22 PM »
hmmm you all raise some good points but what i suppose it all really boils down to is personal preference for how close we want classes to be balanced. I think a wizard being able to fly around casting fireballs at level 5 is more then a bit unreasonable and i also think fighters are bit to weak at higher levels depending on your choice of feats and a few other things. However i still think magic classes should be more powerful on average. So I guess I just feel 4e makes them to balanced and to me the less evil is the obvious unblance of 3.5. There are a few other problems i have with 4e but this is the biggest and i think we are just all gona haft to accept a Modus vivendi on this one.

Different strokes for different folks. I played and ran a lot of 3E and had a lot of fun with it so there's that. I'm sure in a campaign where everyone plays primary spellcasters, then it would be a fine game but the problem lies when someone takes fighter, thinking of King Arthur and Conan and then has to watch legions of F-14 wizards overhead bombing monsters, forever.

Murph

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Re: My Gripe with 4th Ed.
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2010, 09:53:45 PM »
I love the smell of brimstone in the morning.

clockworkjoe

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Re: My Gripe with 4th Ed.
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2010, 09:55:36 PM »

1ST LEVEL WIZARD VS. 14TH LEVEL ICONIC PATHFINDER FIGHTER: 1st level human wizard. 25 point-buy -- easy to get a 14 Dex and 18 Int (of course, this craps all over Con, but eh, this isn't for an actual character). Feats are Improved Initiative and Spell Focus (Enchantment). +6 Initiative, one more than the fighter. Sleep spell with a DC 16. The fighter fails on a 12 or lower. It's not quite winning 75% of the time, but it's definitely more than 50%.


from this thread http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=459558

Murph

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Re: My Gripe with 4th Ed.
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2010, 10:02:19 PM »

1ST LEVEL WIZARD VS. 14TH LEVEL ICONIC PATHFINDER FIGHTER: 1st level human wizard. 25 point-buy -- easy to get a 14 Dex and 18 Int (of course, this craps all over Con, but eh, this isn't for an actual character). Feats are Improved Initiative and Spell Focus (Enchantment). +6 Initiative, one more than the fighter. Sleep spell with a DC 16. The fighter fails on a 12 or lower. It's not quite winning 75% of the time, but it's definitely more than 50%.


from this thread http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=459558

Pfft.  Your sooooo wrong there Ross.  You totally have to wait till 5th level to get Hold Person.  Sleep has a 4 HD limit.

Akiira

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Re: My Gripe with 4th Ed.
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2010, 10:02:35 PM »

1ST LEVEL WIZARD VS. 14TH LEVEL ICONIC PATHFINDER FIGHTER: 1st level human wizard. 25 point-buy -- easy to get a 14 Dex and 18 Int (of course, this craps all over Con, but eh, this isn't for an actual character). Feats are Improved Initiative and Spell Focus (Enchantment). +6 Initiative, one more than the fighter. Sleep spell with a DC 16. The fighter fails on a 12 or lower. It's not quite winning 75% of the time, but it's definitely more than 50%.


from this thread http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=459558

except for the fact that sleep only effects 4hd worth, and the fighter would have at least 14hd

clockworkjoe

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Re: My Gripe with 4th Ed.
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2010, 10:02:43 PM »
nevermind - sleep doesnt work against level 10 or better people.

Murph

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Re: My Gripe with 4th Ed.
« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2010, 10:07:40 PM »
Actually, 3rd level if your a cleric.  Neat, gonna have to to try that.