Author Topic: D&D Next  (Read 28257 times)

QuintaryStarDM

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D&D Next
« on: May 25, 2012, 09:55:09 AM »
I just got my playtest materials and I'm printing it all out right now. I'm really looking forward to running this.

I'm also very interested in what Ross and Tom have to say about it. I hope you guys do an episode about 5th edition, or on edition wars in general (I don't remember, have you done an episode like that?)

SageNytell

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Re: D&D Next
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2012, 11:05:02 AM »
I've read a little myself and the analysis going on over on Something Awful, and it looks fucking awful.  :-[ Back to the days of Dungeon Vietnam and fighters being put back in their "rightful place" as shitfarmers while wizards do the real work with their no-save stunlock cantrips.

When the NDA drops on the 13th Age playtest and I can say more than "I am enjoying that playtest" I'll throw up a thread on here showing the cool new successor to D&D.

Edit:
"If a stirge starts its round attached to you, you get disadvantage on constitution checks until a long rest, unless you have that effect already, in which case you just fall unconscious, unless you are in which case you instantly die.
 
They come in a pack of 13 and fly."

"A melee Fighter against a Medusa can choose to hit about less than half the time or eat a 50% SoD. If he takes the former: The Medusa gets two ranged attacks a round against him that each hit the Fighter 50% of the time while the Fighter moves into range. Once he finally gets there, he's getting hit for 1d10 + 1d4 damage each turn before the Medusa makes any attacks (well, it's a Dex save but still). The Medusa is faster than the Fighter and can keep running away, firing arrows, while the Fighter moves forward and chooses to avert his gaze.
 If you are surprised by the Medusa, you don't get to choose to avert your gaze. That means a SoD that you will fail 50-60% of the time.
 
The Medusa is not the biggest Fuck You Fighter monster in the playtest."

Fighters are straight-up 1e fighters again. No class features other than "know how to use all weapons" (by the way, we're back to requiring a golf-bag of weapons) and basic attack. Wizards are 3e wizards + 4e wizards and ray of frost is a +6 at-will that drops a target's movespeed to 0, no save.
Ugh.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 01:06:26 PM by SageNytell »

clockworkjoe

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Re: D&D Next
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2012, 06:12:19 PM »
seriously? Fighters don't have any class powers anymore? That's lame.

Ryo

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Re: D&D Next
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2012, 09:43:11 AM »
As much as I dislike D&DRetro (and I do), the game is made to be modular, so there is suppose to be plug-ins for the fighter so he has more options.

Overall D&Dnext sucks a$$. Everything bad about D&D is back (really). You name something you hated about 1 - 3.5 eds and chances are its in there.

Assuming no big turn around, I will be disappointed and a little shocked if this game isn't an epic fail at launch or soon after (when people realize what they bought).

If you like pathfinder. There isn't a good reason to change. You can just bring over some of the ideas of DNext, why spend money on what you all ready have.

If you liked 4e... Well your game just went under the bus. There aren't enough of you to matter so blame yourselves for this change (Wizard loves screwing its fans I guess). "Two birds in the bush is worth more than one in the hand".

Everyone that's left.... This is the game for you!!! There must be more of you than the other two groups, otherwise this would be a huge blunder on Wizard's part.

SageNytell

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Re: D&D Next
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2012, 09:46:33 AM »
All I will say is that there *is* a better game coming out, but I can't talk about it right now due to an NDA. After June 6th there will be a new thread, and I hope I can show why I feel this other system succeeds where D&D Next fails.

beej

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Re: D&D Next
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2012, 05:07:34 PM »
I think its a little early to completely trash the game.  They clearly haven't released everything yet.  And undoubted are going to be tweaking stuff based on our feedback.
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SageNytell

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Re: D&D Next
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2012, 12:01:58 AM »


The game that they are playtesting right now is *exactly* what they have been threatening promising to release since they started blogging about it. The 5E design team is like 5 dudes and an intern, and between them they have played... D&D. Only ever D&D. Wizards got rid of everyone of the more progressive bent over the last few years, and it's telling that they had Monte 'Been remaking 3e for years' Cook as their lead designer for a while. Getting rid of him might have helped the game progress a little bit, but god, man, read this shit. They go literally and absurdly out of their way to admit 4E advances even exist, in some ways rewording things to a comic and tragic level. For your consideration:

"Healing Word: 1st level Conjuration
You whisper a brief word of healing for a creature in need. As a shimmering light dapples the creature's wounds, you launch into action.
Effect: You bestow a blessing onto a creature within 50 feet of you that can hear you. The target regains 1d6 hit points.
You can then make a melee attack, a ranged attack, or cast a minor spell you know."

This can be simply worded as: Minor Action. But noooooo, that would be bullshit narrativist abstract nonsense, that can't happen in my Dungeon Vietnam! Instead, you have to use an Action and then you get to take another Action, and since every spell that uses this action economy will require them to type this out and all the spells are in bigass alphabetical lists independent of class again, the spell chapter will once again be ridiculous to navigate.
There is no good excuse for adding needless complexity to something, and the playtest is full of it.

Mathematical analysis made over on the SA forums:
"The playtest material goes to level 3. At level 3, the fighter is doing an average of 15 damage per hit, 3 on a miss, and hits approximately enough that that comes out to about 11 damage per round. Meanwhile, the wizard does 7 damage average, in an area that he is supposed to be weak. So apparently 2/3 the capability of the class that is supposed to be the best at fighting, while being at range, is enough to qualify you for six encounter dominating spells per day."
Also, with no attacks of opportunity or charge attacks and when literally every monster in the playtest has a higher move speed than the fighter, he will never be in melee unless the monster wants him to be. Unlike the wizard who can just autoping every round and can do it from anywhere on the map.

I know this seems a bit much, but as you might be able to tell based on the fact that I regularly listen to a podcast featuring *other people* playing D&D the system change means a fair bit to me. It took me a while to get past the system shock of 4E but I've learned that new is not necessarily bad, in large part because of this podcast. Going back to something purely based on nostalgia is not a viable business move for a company responsible in large part for the success or failure of our hobby as a whole.

The best thing I've heard thus far is Mike Mearls saying on his twitter (ctrl-f Sarx) that if the feedback is overwhelmingly negative they could start over, but the chances of that are realistically slim. This is what they have been working on and promising from the start - a different game would require a different team and a different mindset. More on that Thursday after next.


Fake Edit: Also, 36d20 rats!
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 12:06:12 AM by SageNytell »

Klivian

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Re: D&D Next
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2012, 09:17:30 AM »
I think its a little early to completely trash the game.  They clearly haven't released everything yet.  And undoubted are going to be tweaking stuff based on our feedback.

That's true, but this isn't an alpha release and it may need more than tweaks.

I was honestly hoping they would do a 4.5E and give D&D Next a longer gestation period to mature.  Plus, I think Pathfinder hasn't crested yet.  I'd wait until there was a "need" for a new fantasy game.

SageNytell

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Re: D&D Next
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2012, 12:09:48 PM »
I think its a little early to completely trash the game.  They clearly haven't released everything yet.  And undoubted are going to be tweaking stuff based on our feedback.

 The defense rests, your honor.

They are not going to be fixing a damned thing of what's wrong, and now they've said as much. Now we can move on and the healing process can begin.  ;D

beej

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Re: D&D Next
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2012, 12:53:18 PM »
I'm not sure I see what you saw in that article.  It struck me that they were presponive to concerns in the cleric and the treatment of wizards echoes what I've head from a lot of people about wizard at wills.
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SageNytell

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Re: D&D Next
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2012, 01:40:59 PM »

This is not getting fixed.

On the wizard side,

This is being built on further.

Teapot

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Re: D&D Next
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2012, 03:57:15 AM »
If you liked 4e... Well your game just went under the bus.

I'm still trying to figure out what this means.

Ryo

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Re: D&D Next
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2012, 08:06:55 AM »
It means going forward 4e doesn't exist anymore and never exist. Like Highlander 2. It means if you like 4e, Wizards doesn't want/need you as their customer.

After having played DNext I can say it feel like the team exist to support the Wizard. The Tank Cleric's (why wasn't it a fighter?) best move to to guard the wizard while using dodge. This means the player has nothing to do round after round.

Also the length the game goes to to distance itself from 4e is ridiculous. I can easily hate the game for no other reason than this, but it gives many other options for hating.

unitomega

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Re: D&D Next
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2012, 05:12:22 PM »
After having played DNext I can say it feel like the team exist to support the Wizard.

Well, let's be honest, DnD Next had Monte Cook for a lead designer for a while there, and he is well known for his opinion that the Wizard is the best class and the only one you should be playing.

Capitalocracy

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Re: D&D Next
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2012, 03:28:37 AM »
It's funny, you guys are saying they threw 4e under a bus, but the dinosaurs that still play AD&D and 2e (of which I'm one, but I haven't looked at Next) are all saying it's just a crappy new version of 4e that's trying to look more like 3.5.

Proving once again, you can't make everybody happy, but apparently you can piss everyone off.