Anecdote Megathread

[Fizban]

I ran a Mage game once where a character got his brain so badly fried by a magical accident involving electricity (caused by another character - that was a crazy game) that he lost all sense of feeling.

If you know Mage or WW generally, you know you have seven health levels, and the more hurt you get, the more of a dice penalty you get? Well, since he couldn't feel any pain, he lost the dice penalties. But since he couldn't feel anything, he had only a very vague way of measuring his health (ie count all your limbs, work out how much of that blood is yours etc). So because he was a Son of Ether, he invented a gizmo that was like a biometric scanner that would give him a description of his health, sort of like the HUD in Half-Life, so when he got hurt it would go "*beep beep* light bruising to left leg, sprained ankle".

Of course, when he had to fight a Black Spiral Dancer werewolf, he his HUD was going "*beep beep* Massive internal injuries" "*beep beep* Severe laceration of femoral artery" "*beep beep* blood pressure lowering" "*beep beep* left foot crushed" etc, and so he eventually turned it off.

[crash2455]

What's immersion have to do with being put at an (unrealistic) mechanical disadvantage?

The easy answer to this is for me to ask you to quantify the current number of HP that you have IRL at this moment and your maximum HP. Also, can you quantify in real time the amount of HP that you lose from a combat situation?

I think to really have this discussion, we need to truly know what a "hit point" represents.  I think 4e got it right by abstracting as your will to continue fighting and/or your plot armor (wherein a warlord could yell encouraging words at you to heal you).

That said, that story was pretty awesome, even in spite of the smug.

I ran a Mage game once where a character got his brain so badly fried by a magical accident involving electricity (caused by another character - that was a crazy game) that he lost all sense of feeling.

If you know Mage or WW generally, you know you have seven health levels, and the more hurt you get, the more of a dice penalty you get? Well, since he couldn't feel any pain, he lost the dice penalties. But since he couldn't feel anything, he had only a very vague way of measuring his health (ie count all your limbs, work out how much of that blood is yours etc). So because he was a Son of Ether, he invented a gizmo that was like a biometric scanner that would give him a description of his health, sort of like the HUD in Half-Life, so when he got hurt it would go "*beep beep* light bruising to left leg, sprained ankle".

Of course, when he had to fight a Black Spiral Dancer werewolf, he his HUD was going "*beep beep* Massive internal injuries" "*beep beep* Severe laceration of femoral artery" "*beep beep* blood pressure lowering" "*beep beep* left foot crushed" etc, and so he eventually turned it off.

I think hearing all the horrible injuries you're sustaining would almost be as stressing as physical pain.  It's an interesting idea, though.

[Moondog]

What's immersion have to do with being put at an (unrealistic) mechanical disadvantage?

The easy answer to this is for me to ask you to quantify the current number of HP that you have IRL at this moment and your maximum HP. Also, can you quantify in real time the amount of HP that you lose from a combat situation?

The average man has a Str of 13, and swings for 1d4 points of damage per strike. In fights before, I have taken about five or six or so solid blows before getting to the point where I could no longer fight (or in otherwise, am staggered). The average damage per blow is going to be 3.5 damage (2.5+1 for strength), therefore I possess about 15 to 18 hit points, at least as far as nonlethal damage goes.

I am at the peak of my condition for right now (no injuries, sprains, drunkeness penalizing my Constitution, nor illnesses). Therefore, I possess from 15 to 18 hit points.

Without being in a combat situation, I cannot answer the second part of the question.

Which is about accurate, saying I'm a 2nd or 3rd level expert with the constitution of a horse is an adequate statement in regards to my abilities, but this isn't really the thread for it.

Also yes, hit points have always been will to keep on fighting/ability to prevent a mortal or killing blow; even the 1e AD&D DMG says 'hit points are necessary abstraction; a high level Fighter can have more hit points than two heavy warhorses. It isn't that the Fighter can simply take continual flesh-wounds from orcish battleaxes, but that the fighter has the ability to roll to avoid all the damage, or deflect it to his armor, or his shield; his ability to withstand damage and stave-off the final blow is lessened when he takes 'damage', perhaps reflecting his shield arm being numbed and unresponsive, or him being winded'.

Or something very close to that.

[SageNytell]

What's immersion have to do with being put at an (unrealistic) mechanical disadvantage?

The easy answer to this is for me to ask you to quantify the current number of HP that you have IRL at this moment and your maximum HP. Also, can you quantify in real time the amount of HP that you lose from a combat situation?

The average man has a Str of 13, and swings for 1d4 points of damage per strike. In fights before, I have taken about five or six or so solid blows before getting to the point where I could no longer fight (or in otherwise, am staggered). The average damage per blow is going to be 3.5 damage (2.5+1 for strength), therefore I possess about 15 to 18 hit points, at least as far as nonlethal damage goes.

I am at the peak of my condition for right now (no injuries, sprains, drunkeness penalizing my Constitution, nor illnesses). Therefore, I possess from 15 to 18 hit points.

Without being in a combat situation, I cannot answer the second part of the question.

Which is about accurate, saying I'm a 2nd or 3rd level expert with the constitution of a horse is an adequate statement in regards to my abilities, but this isn't really the thread for it.

Also yes, hit points have always been will to keep on fighting/ability to prevent a mortal or killing blow; even the 1e AD&D DMG says 'hit points are necessary abstraction; a high level Fighter can have more hit points than two heavy warhorses. It isn't that the Fighter can simply take continual flesh-wounds from orcish battleaxes, but that the fighter has the ability to roll to avoid all the damage, or deflect it to his armor, or his shield; his ability to withstand damage and stave-off the final blow is lessened when he takes 'damage', perhaps reflecting his shield arm being numbed and unresponsive, or him being winded'.

Important part bolded.
Who says anything about hit points being realistic? They exist for the purpose of the game because some way to track physical harm was deemed necessary, you said it yourself. Anyone with any experience in sports injuries or the medical profession could tell you how laughable a concept it is - it's about fun and ease of play, not realism.

[Setherick]

Important part bolded.
Who says anything about hit points being realistic? They exist for the purpose of the game because some way to track physical harm was deemed necessary, you said it yourself. Anyone with any experience in sports injuries or the medical profession could tell you how laughable a concept it is - it's about fun and ease of play, not realism.

My smart ass response was more directed at removing the need for deciding every action based on some sort of mathematical formula. I have somewhat of a math background so in a combat situation in a game I can quickly calculate the average amount of damage my character is taking per round of heavy fighting and decide probabilistically whether or not I should continue fighting. Immersive play removes the probabilities from the equation and you are forced to make a decision based on limited information. In high fantasy games, I see this as moving PCs to RP heroic actions that require leaps of faith more than they do number crunching. How much more nerve wracking is it to attack a dragon not knowing you're at low HP rather than attacking one knowing that you are?

As far as HP systems, I've always been kind of annoyed with systems that allow players an inordinate number of HPs anyway. I should be able to kill a monster or other PC with a single shot without having to rely on some gimmick (vorpal, save vs death, whatever).

[Moondog]

Important part bolded.
Who says anything about hit points being realistic? They exist for the purpose of the game because some way to track physical harm was deemed necessary, you said it yourself. Anyone with any experience in sports injuries or the medical profession could tell you how laughable a concept it is - it's about fun and ease of play, not realism.

My smart ass response was more directed at removing the need for deciding every action based on some sort of mathematical formula. I have somewhat of a math background so in a combat situation in a game I can quickly calculate the average amount of damage my character is taking per round of heavy fighting and decide probabilistically whether or not I should continue fighting. Immersive play removes the probabilities from the equation and you are forced to make a decision based on limited information. In high fantasy games, I see this as moving PCs to RP heroic actions that require leaps of faith more than they do number crunching. How much more nerve wracking is it to attack a dragon not knowing you're at low HP rather than attacking one knowing that you are?

As far as HP systems, I've always been kind of annoyed with systems that allow players an inordinate number of HPs anyway. I should be able to kill a monster or other PC with a single shot without having to rely on some gimmick (vorpal, save vs death, whatever).

I think we may just have a different view of what we want in our gaming. I like numbers. Numbers are fun and I get more involved in things when I know that by doing X I can get Y. So I will try X. Even if X is silly and probably heroically dumb.

That is to say, I don't think having the ability to calculate chances of success makes things any less heroic.

Edit: Yes, HP are unrealistic. I meant to say 'not knowing your own count is unrealistic' not that the abstraction is/isn't. Gotta be better at being specific, I guess.

Edit edit: Of course too much realism makes things completely goddamn boring; imagine a system that required you to make system checks vs septicemia or tetanus when injured in an even slightly dirty environment and calorie count vs exertio- so basically FATAL.

Edit Edit Edit: I think anything allowing one-shot kills would pretty much be the worst thing imaginable.  "Your heroic swordsman walks down the street. Due to his low charisma, a child lobs a rock at his head." *roll*  "He dies instantly." and then the game crashes to a screeching halt.

[Flawless P]

Average commoners in 3.5 have a 10 in every stat.
They do 1d3 unarmed damage, so without con bonus you'd have 7 or 8 hp.

I think call of cthulhu abstracts hp best, 10 is average and most guns do 2d6 or more.  Unconcious at 2 hp or lower.

[Setherick]

I think call of cthulhu abstracts hp best, 10 is average and most guns do 2d6 or more.  Unconcious at 2 hp or lower.

I agree, which is why Dodge is the single most important skill in the game if you want to make a munchkin. (That and Credit Rating. Coincidentally, Ross, my next CoC character will be a billionaire, ninja, computer hacker.)

[Moondog]

Average commoners in 3.5 have a 10 in every stat.
They do 1d3 unarmed damage, so without con bonus you'd have 7 or 8 hp.

I think call of cthulhu abstracts hp best, 10 is average and most guns do 2d6 or more.  Unconcious at 2 hp or lower.

False. Average commoners use 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 for their stats, typically putting the 13 in the attribute most useful to their profession (Charisma for a performer or speaker, wisdom for an herbalist, strength for a laborer), so they're at +1. Then there's the +2 to a stat due to being a human.

You are entirely right about the unarmed damage though. It *is* 1d3. . . despite me always assuming it was 1d4.

Huh.

[Tadanori Oyama]

Humans in 3.5 don't get a +2 to anything, they get a bonus feat and a skill point. Pathfinder and 4E give them +2 to an attribute.

I'm waiting for the funny twist on this "anecdote" you all are brewing up.

If we had a forum roller I'd suggest a 3.5 D&D vs. CoC "commoner" death match.

[Moondog]

Humans in 3.5 don't get a +2 to anything, they get a bonus feat and a skill point. Pathfinder and 4E give them +2 to an attribute.

I'm waiting for the funny twist on this "anecdote" you all are brewing up.

If we had a forum roller I'd suggest a 3.5 D&D vs. CoC "commoner" death match.

We aren't.

We're arguing about...something. HP and averages and whether or not depriving a player of the knowledge of their own character's health is more immersive.

Or something, I kind of lost track.

also I did say this isn't quite th right thread for it. :p

[Tadanori Oyama]

I know you aren't building up to an anecdote; I trying to point that out. It didn't work quite right. The discussion probably does deserve a thread though.

[Wooberman]

Oh god... what have I done?!

[Setherick]

Oh god... what have I done?!

Something unspeakable. You got the forums dedicated to RPGs to talk about RPGs. Monster.

[Wooberman]

Okay I'm a terrible person but here's another winner from Reddit's Rpg subreddit -

http://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/rog1k/whats_the_most_creative_misuse_of_rules_youve_seen/