Author Topic: Episode 44: Don't Hate the Game  (Read 29159 times)

Mckma

  • President of the Apparatus of Kwalish fan club
  • *****
  • Posts: 1538
  • Sometimes Murphy's Law needs to be enforced
    • View Profile
Episode 44: Don't Hate the Game
« on: April 16, 2010, 01:22:41 AM »
I really liked the episode, first one to really distract me completely from the work I was doing.  I liked Mike's input and inspired me to check out their podcast.  I don't know why, but I never really thought about the disliking the system versus thinking it's a bad system idea.  Anyway, I had another thought, but I forgot...

Viletta Vadim

  • Slayer of the Dread Gazebo
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Episode 44: Don't Hate the Game
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2010, 07:54:15 PM »
A minor point that got brought up; infinite wild shaping.  That's actually quite easy.  While Master of Many Forms doesn't grant it anymore, the Warshaper class (Complete Warrior, IIRC) grants an ability at level 5 that allows you to change your Wild Shape/Polymorph/etc. form in the middle of the duration without expending another use.  And since if you have Wild Shape, you're pretty much guaranteed to get at least twenty-four hours' worth of it eventually, it's effectively infinite.  You can then add in Master of Many Forms to add breadth and just stay Wild Shaped at all times, shifting into your default form when you don't need any other form.

Mckma

  • President of the Apparatus of Kwalish fan club
  • *****
  • Posts: 1538
  • Sometimes Murphy's Law needs to be enforced
    • View Profile
Re: Episode 44: Don't Hate the Game
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2010, 08:31:21 PM »
When I first played 3.5, I thought the Master of Many Forms had unlimited shape-change, but then I checked and was disappointed when it didn't (I didn't think to look at what the shape-changer subtype actually was)...

By the way, in looking through books, I found an awesome class name, "Master Transmogrifist"

Sean-o-tron

  • I dream in graph paper lines
  • ****
  • Posts: 402
  • heard nonsense
    • View Profile
Re: Episode 44: Don't Hate the Game
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2010, 08:41:21 PM »
When I first played 3.5, I thought the Master of Many Forms had unlimited shape-change, but then I checked and was disappointed when it didn't (I didn't think to look at what the shape-changer subtype actually was)...

By the way, in looking through books, I found an awesome class name, "Master Transmogrifist"

That's officially my new rap name.  Look out, nerdcore hip-hop!

Dogfish

  • I am worth 100 points in GURPS...ladies
  • ***
  • Posts: 241
    • View Profile
Re: Episode 44: Don't Hate the Game
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2010, 09:24:49 PM »
The complaints against 4th ed. not feeling like D&D are numerous amongst the net, same in number probably with the video-game analogies.

I wouldn't say this argument is entirely dismissable but is mainly made by fanboys screaming.

The general argument against this 'feeling' is to say ignore the game or take the system as a stand-alone different entity. However this is no argument against the 'feelings' at all.

I think the video-game balance, rather ironically, is a complaint born from the largest complaint of 3.5. This is game balance. People say that 4th ed. over-stepped the mark to making all the classes so balanced as to become very, very, similiar. They see this as an attempt to make a video-game RPG-esque system of balance. This then goes onto contribute to what people feel is cheating them from D&D feelings, a kind of elitist pen and paper world.

I don't think the guys on the developmental team of 4th edition have responded to these backlashes well. An argument I've read from them is that "3.5 had expanded far too much in sourcebooks and splat to the point a new edition had to be made...well so be it we did make one." (I'm paraphrasing heavily here)

I really don't want to retread the arguments of 4th edition again. We've all done it at least once. I dislike it quite a bit but much like Winston Churchill said of Democracy, "It's a bad system but it's the best one we have right now" by that I mean that their will never be this Holy Grail of gaming systems and that you simply have to choose to love a system inspite of what flaws it may have. The arguments arise when people protect their chosen system whilst ignoring or rolling in it's flaws.

Kroack

  • I walk between the rain drops, tommy gun and katana in hand
  • *****
  • Posts: 1153
    • View Profile
Re: Episode 44: Don't Hate the Game
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2010, 09:32:19 PM »
Fuck.

How many threads on this forum are going to go back to the old 4th Ed bullshit.

IT NO LONGER CREATES STIMULATING CONVERSATION

Leave it be!

Mckma

  • President of the Apparatus of Kwalish fan club
  • *****
  • Posts: 1538
  • Sometimes Murphy's Law needs to be enforced
    • View Profile
Re: Episode 44: Don't Hate the Game
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2010, 12:49:47 AM »
I rather like 4th edition.  While I feel it is a bit limited with what you can do with it, it's infinitely easier to to run and play, so I'll trade a slight lack of breadth for an easier dive into depth...

ThnJonWasAZmbie

  • I am worth 100 points in GURPS...ladies
  • ***
  • Posts: 207
  • Where bears can fly.
    • View Profile
Re: Episode 44: Don't Hate the Game
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2010, 01:06:28 AM »
lol It was me who got the copy of World of Synnibarr signed by them.  I actually appreciate the book now.
Jumping off diving boards gives you the ability to make your rpg ring with authenticity.

clockworkjoe

  • BUY MY BOOK
  • Administrator
  • Extreme XP CEO
  • *****
  • Posts: 6517
    • View Profile
    • BUY MY BOOK
Re: Episode 44: Don't Hate the Game
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2010, 01:19:26 AM »
hahaha

Ayslyn

  • Slayer of the Dread Gazebo
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: Episode 44: Don't Hate the Game
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2010, 02:21:26 AM »
On the Catalyst Labs front, their official announcement reads a little differently.   It sounds (to me) as though the financial issue wasn't a malicious act, and that the person involved a.) didn't necessarily understand what was happening, b.) cooperated fully in the investigation to figure out precisely what had happened, and c.) is arranging some method to return the money.

Here's the relevant quote from their press release:
Quote
While we wish the review had only uncovered positive news, we also discovered our accounting procedures had not been updated as the company continued to grow. The result was that business funds had been co-mingled with the personal funds of one of the owners. We believe the missing funds were the result of bad habits that began alongside the creation of the company, which was initially a small hobby group. Upon further investigation, in which the owner has willingly participated, the owner in question now owes the company a significant balance and is working to help rectify the situation.


Eclipse Phase will continue, as will CthulhuTech, just not with Catalyst as partners in publishing them.   Posthuman Studios and WildFire (respectively to the two aforementioned game lines) will continue to publish them.   Catalyst is concentrating it's resources on their two flagship games of Battletech and Shadowrun.  Also, they plan to complete and release Leviathan.


Mckma

  • President of the Apparatus of Kwalish fan club
  • *****
  • Posts: 1538
  • Sometimes Murphy's Law needs to be enforced
    • View Profile
Re: Episode 44: Don't Hate the Game
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2010, 02:36:47 AM »
lol It was me who got the copy of World of Synnibarr signed by them.  I actually appreciate the book now.

Now you have internet fame!  How exciting.

Boyos

  • President of the Apparatus of Kwalish fan club
  • *****
  • Posts: 1618
    • View Profile
Re: Episode 44: Don't Hate the Game
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2010, 10:35:22 AM »
On the Catalyst Labs front, their official announcement reads a little differently.   It sounds (to me) as though the financial issue wasn't a malicious act, and that the person involved a.) didn't necessarily understand what was happening, b.) cooperated fully in the investigation to figure out precisely what had happened, and c.) is arranging some method to return the money.

Here's the relevant quote from their press release:
Quote
While we wish the review had only uncovered positive news, we also discovered our accounting procedures had not been updated as the company continued to grow. The result was that business funds had been co-mingled with the personal funds of one of the owners. We believe the missing funds were the result of bad habits that began alongside the creation of the company, which was initially a small hobby group. Upon further investigation, in which the owner has willingly participated, the owner in question now owes the company a significant balance and is working to help rectify the situation.


Eclipse Phase will continue, as will CthulhuTech, just not with Catalyst as partners in publishing them.   Posthuman Studios and WildFire (respectively to the two aforementioned game lines) will continue to publish them.   Catalyst is concentrating it's resources on their two flagship games of Battletech and Shadowrun.  Also, they plan to complete and release Leviathan.



Im Sure the guy from Enron was a good guy, and didnt realy mean to do it too, you know you just kinda dont Realized your getting an extra 800,000 bucks.

clockworkjoe

  • BUY MY BOOK
  • Administrator
  • Extreme XP CEO
  • *****
  • Posts: 6517
    • View Profile
    • BUY MY BOOK
Re: Episode 44: Don't Hate the Game
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2010, 06:46:08 PM »
A minor point that got brought up; infinite wild shaping.  That's actually quite easy.  While Master of Many Forms doesn't grant it anymore, the Warshaper class (Complete Warrior, IIRC) grants an ability at level 5 that allows you to change your Wild Shape/Polymorph/etc. form in the middle of the duration without expending another use.  And since if you have Wild Shape, you're pretty much guaranteed to get at least twenty-four hours' worth of it eventually, it's effectively infinite.  You can then add in Master of Many Forms to add breadth and just stay Wild Shaped at all times, shifting into your default form when you don't need any other form.

oh 3E I will never get tired of your game breaking combos

Ayslyn

  • Slayer of the Dread Gazebo
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: Episode 44: Don't Hate the Game
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2010, 06:59:52 PM »
Im Sure the guy from Enron was a good guy, and didnt realy mean to do it too, you know you just kinda dont Realized your getting an extra 800,000 bucks.

*shrugs*   Maybe.   I'm just saying that I'm not seeing a lot of animosity coming form them, and that unless I have good reason, I don't see why I shouldn't take them at face value.  Normally when there is some sort of malfeasance the wronged party doesn't have much of a problem telling you what a tool the other guy is, so when they seem (again, IMO) to go out of their way to NOT go that route, I am willing to roll with it.

To me, that release sounds more like an "Ooops.   Screw-ups on all sides.   Sorry All." than "That rat-bastid done us wrong"


Anyway.   The bright point in all of this is that it doesn't look like any of the game lines are going to suffer, and I suspect that we will see all of them represented at GenCon.

Boyos

  • President of the Apparatus of Kwalish fan club
  • *****
  • Posts: 1618
    • View Profile
Re: Episode 44: Don't Hate the Game
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2010, 11:53:48 PM »
I just got done watching, MATT DAMON!, Informent, and well I think that would open eyes haha!