Author Topic: Precognition  (Read 34714 times)

buddy

  • Slayer of the Dread Gazebo
  • *
  • Posts: 29
    • View Profile
Re: Precognition
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2013, 07:53:26 PM »
unconscious precog:  potential in game effects:  combat bonuses, 'cannot be surprised', 'cannot be stunned', etc.  potential out of game effects: allow player to nullify actions, skip actions/scenes



conscious precog:  other potential out of game effects:  GM gives the player the stats and/or write ups of the NPCs they encounter and/or the scenes and/or the adventure

either way, i'd recommending there being some sort of important cost for the ability -- increases awareness by the Things from the Dungeon Dimension, gives the user extreme bad luck, does health damage, limited # of uses, becomes a patsy for a crime, etc etc

you could even be artsy with the precog and say, after a campaign or an adventure or scene or interaction that it didn't really happen but was really the character's precog in action
I'm running it as dream-states (when the hero sleeps) & more immediate-focused awareness ("such & such is coming"). So, it will have serious impact without throwing my game down the drain. Thankfully, the player has placed control of the power in my hands.

Thanks, QRP!

buddy

  • Slayer of the Dread Gazebo
  • *
  • Posts: 29
    • View Profile
Re: Precognition
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2013, 07:55:35 PM »
How do they precog? That can change how/what you give them.

As stated above, I'm limiting it to dream-states & certain emergency situations. The ones that count, while giving the hero a vague awareness of danger or doom in situations that aren't that important to the game.

buddy

  • Slayer of the Dread Gazebo
  • *
  • Posts: 29
    • View Profile
Re: Precognition
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2013, 08:09:42 PM »

My idea for precognition is the fact that the instant you look at the future, you're changing the future. If you stand and concentrate on a vision, you aren't moving in the world, and so the future you are seeing is not the one that will now occur. Sure, if you were sitting at home or reading in a library anyway its minor, in the middle of a battle where every millisecond counts, that's a far quicker ripple with more consequence.

So a character is not only trying to do something impossible like have memories of events that haven't happened yet, but they are then being punished by having the mind splitting experience of having contradictory memories of things that haven't happened yet in their brain.

So to start with I would imagine that makes such visions be detached the moment they begin, with the side effect of pain and disorientation, and so only an 'impression' of both likely futures occuring. It allows you to hint at clues, and in a battle maybe hint at an action.

The player can slowly get control of how long they can stand the pain to actually see a proper vision, and after that be able to start gaining the ability to throw their mind more accurately to a point in time in future. Although the further you go, the more even your pause and likely use of the knowledge will have made waves and so the worse such mental trauma will be.

It seems a nice echo of the quantum physics 'the observer changes the observed' and also explains why all prophesy is so damned convoluted and riddle like - short visions and deliberate obfuscation to not instantly invalidate the vision.

Anyway, that's how I'd do it. It can be a powerful ability in combat or for plot hints, but you automatically build in a fudge factor for why the future turns out differently if the players then do something strange. You can blame the original player, or the other player's foreknowledge, as derailing the time. Just make sure there was still a benefit.

And you can have personal cost be the disorientation in battle, up to the  potential for the player to be permanently damaging their mind and suffering mental health issues. Those can be tweaked as the game goes in order to provide a buffer against abuse. And even side quest opportunities to relief their mind, or learn to control their powers more.

And if the players can precog, then you can set them against an enemy precog later once they get a good handle on their abilities to further buffer the seen future as opposed to how the players play the game. I'm thinking ideas like in Push where you end up with a cat and mouse game.

Beo,

I disagree that seeing the future changes it. Many of us have seen the future, while we dare not admit it. I've had friends tell me the future they've seen - odd proclamations that seem insane - until it happens. I think the future is based on mathematical logic: this + this = that. There's a whole science dedicated to predicting future events that I've studied for years. Regardless, predicting exact events is curious & tricky & requires a supreme level of logic to make the knowledge of any use.

I like how you think. I'm doing a similar thing in regard to using Precognition: it drives the hero's power levels up, akin to Marvel's Phoenix. She gets more powerful with each vision, becoming a greater threat to everyone around her as her vision of the future becomes clearer & clearer. As close she comes to holding the future in her hands, the closer she comes to becoming a Goddess. Eventually, she grasps full control of the ability, while at the same time losing her grasp on her sanity.

Then, I take the character sheet & have some fun, giving it back only when they hero is forced to face the terrible power she can't control. It's ugly, but the very best story I've ever read in comics was Chris Claremont's "Dark Phoenix" saga. What's the very worst thing for a hero? To lose control of that power they use to protect others. To become a slave to their own uncontrollable Chaos.

I'll visit it again in my game - I did this decades ago with a female Fighter who gained a cursed sword.

i guess the question is; am I being fair?

buddy

  • Slayer of the Dread Gazebo
  • *
  • Posts: 29
    • View Profile
Re: Precognition
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2013, 08:17:48 PM »
Well, if they know the future because they came from there, they have to account for the butterfly effect as they change the past, with some things like earthquakes still going off. So they have more an idea or big picture than exacts.

If they get dreams and potents then it's all symbols and gibberish anyway.

If they look to the direct future it's always changing as they look and change their plans so it's unclear.

Do they look to alternate futures?

Is there free will in your game? Oddly, by being a dice RPG there kind of is, or at least chaos as rolls are unknown.

What do they want from the power? Do they want to win bets on sports games? Do they want to Bill and Ted problems away? If they just want you to create garbled messages for them it's not a problem.

You can try a thing where they can look for certain things and be there, arranging a meeting on a street where the IRA is about to explode a car or knowing when a fire alarm will go off etc.

This hero is from an alternate (Marvel) Earth reality where she was the child of Charles Xavier & Moira MacTaggart. She's a versatile telepath with power-armor. I thought to play with the notions of her new-world identity by introducing her to X-men she doesn't know, a Franklin Richards who knows her & Kevin - the reality-warping mutant son of Moira MacTaggart who sees the heroine as his "sister".

Plus, she's growing in power like Phoenix.

I thought alternate futures would work, but in-game, doing that makes the power ineffective.

i want to show her what's to come, in a way that gives the player CHOICE. Isn't that the meat of this? The player needs choice or I invalidate a power that should grant ultimate awareness.

So far, I have her seeing the key 1st Act event & the appearance of her "brother" (evil mutant), which occur at different times but relate to the greater game as twisted events.

LST, I like your mind. Tell me more ........

buddy

  • Slayer of the Dread Gazebo
  • *
  • Posts: 29
    • View Profile
Re: Precognition
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2013, 08:45:35 PM »
Well, if they know the future because they came from there, they have to account for the butterfly effect as they change the past, with some things like earthquakes still going off. So they have more an idea or big picture than exacts.

If they get dreams and potents then it's all symbols and gibberish anyway.

If they look to the direct future it's always changing as they look and change their plans so it's unclear.

Do they look to alternate futures?

Is there free will in your game? Oddly, by being a dice RPG there kind of is, or at least chaos as rolls are unknown.

What do they want from the power? Do they want to win bets on sports games? Do they want to Bill and Ted problems away? If they just want you to create garbled messages for them it's not a problem.

You can try a thing where they can look for certain things and be there, arranging a meeting on a street where the IRA is about to explode a car or knowing when a fire alarm will go off etc.

YES, to free will. I wanted that paramount. Hence my issue with Precognition in relation to player decisions.

If I see myself sweeping the kitchen, LST, should I be sweeping the kitchen at some point?

That's been resolved, thanks to Forum posters, to immediate events & dream-states that detail easy Scene openings.

What does the player want from the power? Clarity, that makes the power effective. It bothered me at first, but now I have some kind of handle on it.

right. Focus on a key event I can reveal the best outcome to & running with that. I'm okay with most of the games (20+) sub-Plots rendering an outcome visible by the hero. As long as the End is preserved.

Or is preserving the End worthwhile? Can a game be called "good" if the climactic ending is sacrificed?

buddy

  • Slayer of the Dread Gazebo
  • *
  • Posts: 29
    • View Profile
Re: Precognition
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2013, 08:56:23 PM »
A great use of the Precognition power I've seen is in Dark Heresy: it gives a bonus to dodge and parry while active, like seeing what the opponent will do just before they do it. It doesn't work at all in a story busting capacity.

As for the seeing the future, I like the idea of split time lines occurring across multiple parrallel universes, so what they see may not be what they empirically experience, just what happens in one possible stream of existence.

You could also play the "Final Destination" angle where they cheat the foreseen outcome, but the end result occurs in other ways.

If only I could limit this power to combat effects.

Ckenp, if you built a hero with Precognition, would you be satisfied with only combat bonuses?

No, likely. You'd want to see "what is coming". It's only fair, right?

As addressed earlier, limiting Precogs to "alternate reality" visions makes the power ineffective. It's like throwing a punch you're not sure hit it's target, even when you hit. Unfair.

As GM, I need to create future visions that truly do manifest, while keeping the visions safely outside the realm of "this key action changes the tide of action". and even then, maybe I should present that vision that reveals enough plot to make the game a "walk-through". No?

Even with what I've decided to do in order to accommodate the player, I'm still in the dark here.

The funny thing: no podcast has addressed Precognition. Yet. Not one. If Ross & Co. can get there 1st, it's safe to say many of the other 'casts will fall in line w/ like topics. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, no?

buddy

  • Slayer of the Dread Gazebo
  • *
  • Posts: 29
    • View Profile
Re: Precognition
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2013, 09:05:28 PM »
On top of this current game concept, i have another that is pure Precog:

What if you could prevent the Kennedy assassination?

I have that game & it really troubles me. Changing the past & all. Could you? How? What's the result?

I playtested it with my group & they stopped talking to me for a few days. They failed. They didn't see all the angles.

Seeing & changing history is an amazing setting. I know a few gaming companies see the potential of "shifted RPG settings",
but, flirting with the idea of altering Time itself is, perhaps, the grandest RPG setting - the grandest goal of players - we as GMs
could imagine.

Done properly, you can turn your gaming groups upside-down.

What do you think?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 09:18:01 PM by buddy »

Atlas

  • Zombie Apocalypse Survivor
  • **
  • Posts: 77
    • View Profile
Re: Precognition
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2013, 11:23:34 AM »
Why not just make precognition by the character's own view of the future?

Player: "Oh I look into the future."
GM: "You don't see anything"
Player: "But that's my super power."
GM: "You probably don't exist at that time then."

Foreshadowing character death spurs them to action to stop the event, and if they manage to stop the event and survive it can always be explained that with their power they changed the future. Eventually this approach would get old and formulaic but that is the case with any campaign driven by a guy who can see the long running consequences of everything.

beowuuf

  • I dream in graph paper lines
  • ****
  • Posts: 355
    • View Profile
    • DM.com - forums dedicated to a 25 year old PC game.
Re: Precognition
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2013, 02:18:15 PM »
Quote from: buddy link=topic=1666.msg36641#msg36641 date=1363824582[/quote

Beo,

I disagree that seeing the future changes it.

No problem, I had my sneaky bastard GM hat on. That's the way I'd fudge and balance it, by selling it that the players have too much agency rather than none :D If this was a normal story, I think playing with predestination as a solid construct to fight against is more fun that instant fluidity. I've done so with prophetic visions in prose I've written before.


For the sounds of your story, I think that you need to have each vision not just a random one that is useful to the player. Well, you can do that in combat in the way suggested, perhaps as a tactical choice of whom gets focused on and gets a small but meningful bonus.

Outside of combat, a vision should implicitly grant a responsibility. She gets a vision of someone doing good and being in power. There';s almost an automatic 'do you let this happen' due to some aspect of the vision. After that, she gets further visions when interacting with other NPCs and PCs that show the necessary steps for that first vision. Each time, there should be a dramatic implication - alter the timeline or defend it.

Basically, have the players choose to railroad themselves or not, and have both paths be interesting. It's up to them if they mess up your constructed story, and so you have to worry less about justifying why things aren't going the same way if the push against it.

Throw in some arbitrary visions to do with player conflict - she seems herself stabbing one of the players. If that player later mucks up the timeline, you can retcon that her choice earlier on something directly led to this invalidating of the future.

Or, of course, when another player is going to do a vision breaking action, pause the action, have the vision of the alternate future flash in her mind as a retcon, and then see if she blocks the player or lets thing happen.


buddy

  • Slayer of the Dread Gazebo
  • *
  • Posts: 29
    • View Profile
Re: Precognition
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2013, 04:33:10 PM »
Slept on it & the whole "loosing control of powers" thing is bad. very bad.

I'll just focus on making the precog ability effective.

I appreciate all the advice, people. I've listened to everything Ross, Tom & crew have recorded, but this is my first time on the forum.

Hopefully when I get stumped in the future, I can drop by here again & get more of your insights.

buddy

  • Slayer of the Dread Gazebo
  • *
  • Posts: 29
    • View Profile
Re: Precognition
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2013, 04:38:58 PM »
Why not just make precognition by the character's own view of the future?

Player: "Oh I look into the future."
GM: "You don't see anything"
Player: "But that's my super power."
GM: "You probably don't exist at that time then."

Foreshadowing character death spurs them to action to stop the event, and if they manage to stop the event and survive it can always be explained that with their power they changed the future. Eventually this approach would get old and formulaic but that is the case with any campaign driven by a guy who can see the long running consequences of everything.

LoL. nice @ "but that's my power". You guys are probably some evil so&so GMs.

The more I think about it, the more Hulk head hurt! So, I'm just gonna do whatever makes the player happy & if the game ends in 6 minutes, I'll make a note to prohibit Precognition - in the future!

Thanks, Mighty Atlas :D

buddy

  • Slayer of the Dread Gazebo
  • *
  • Posts: 29
    • View Profile
Re: Precognition
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2013, 04:41:43 PM »



*groan*

what WAS a good film about Precognition?

"Minority report"? ugh

the one with Nicholas Cage - the plane crash was neet-o!


clockworkjoe

  • BUY MY BOOK
  • Administrator
  • Extreme XP CEO
  • *****
  • Posts: 6517
    • View Profile
    • BUY MY BOOK
Re: Precognition
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2013, 04:50:02 PM »
Why not just make precognition by the character's own view of the future?

Player: "Oh I look into the future."
GM: "You don't see anything"
Player: "But that's my super power."
GM: "You probably don't exist at that time then."

Foreshadowing character death spurs them to action to stop the event, and if they manage to stop the event and survive it can always be explained that with their power they changed the future. Eventually this approach would get old and formulaic but that is the case with any campaign driven by a guy who can see the long running consequences of everything.

da fuq is going on with your avatar

QuickreleasePersonalitY

  • I am worth 100 points in GURPS...ladies
  • ***
  • Posts: 232
  • if you see your self on the road, kill it
    • View Profile
Re: Precognition
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2013, 04:56:24 PM »
On top of this current game concept, i have another that is pure Precog:

What if you could prevent the Kennedy assassination?

I have that game & it really troubles me. Changing the past & all. Could you? How? What's the result?

I playtested it with my group & they stopped talking to me for a few days. They failed. They didn't see all the angles.

Seeing & changing history is an amazing setting. I know a few gaming companies see the potential of "shifted RPG settings",
but, flirting with the idea of altering Time itself is, perhaps, the grandest RPG setting - the grandest goal of players - we as GMs
could imagine.

Done properly, you can turn your gaming groups upside-down.

What do you think?

Whatever you do, remember your games are fiction and don't have to follow any of the rules of reality that you have to follow :3

Your post reminded me of my favourite time-travel RPG called Continuum.  Here's their website http://www.aetherco.com/continuum/

Here's another idear for Precog:  the Precog actually creates the future.  That could mean an interesting campaign where
perhaps gov'ts/other groups realize this and try to control it.  Imagine a modern game where jihadists can create the future...:3
pretentious i am
lest pretentious i become

buddy

  • Slayer of the Dread Gazebo
  • *
  • Posts: 29
    • View Profile
Re: Precognition
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2013, 05:15:03 PM »
Quote from: buddy link=topic=1666.msg36641#msg36641 date=1363824582[/quote

Beo,

I disagree that seeing the future changes it.

No problem, I had my sneaky bastard GM hat on. That's the way I'd fudge and balance it, by selling it that the players have too much agency rather than none :D If this was a normal story, I think playing with predestination as a solid construct to fight against is more fun that instant fluidity. I've done so with prophetic visions in prose I've written before.


For the sounds of your story, I think that you need to have each vision not just a random one that is useful to the player. Well, you can do that in combat in the way suggested, perhaps as a tactical choice of whom gets focused on and gets a small but meningful bonus.

Outside of combat, a vision should implicitly grant a responsibility. She gets a vision of someone doing good and being in power. There';s almost an automatic 'do you let this happen' due to some aspect of the vision. After that, she gets further visions when interacting with other NPCs and PCs that show the necessary steps for that first vision. Each time, there should be a dramatic implication - alter the timeline or defend it.

Basically, have the players choose to railroad themselves or not, and have both paths be interesting. It's up to them if they mess up your constructed story, and so you have to worry less about justifying why things aren't going the same way if the push against it.

Throw in some arbitrary visions to do with player conflict - she seems herself stabbing one of the players. If that player later mucks up the timeline, you can retcon that her choice earlier on something directly led to this invalidating of the future.

Or, of course, when another player is going to do a vision breaking action, pause the action, have the vision of the alternate future flash in her mind as a retcon, and then see if she blocks the player or lets thing happen.

I'm pretty sure i'm not smart enough to pull that off.

But i like it, regardless.

You ever run a game you thought was air-tight & you get to the end (climactic, even) & one of your players says, "wait. that can't happen!"

gods. I hate that. loathe it. But, precognition invites such events. It hides, lurking, waiting for me to miss how such&such event links to such&such later event & BOOM! I missed crossing arcs & their logical outcome.

Just tell me how to handle this & I'll do it. If the hero "sees something", then later actions invalidate that vision, i retcon that her actions changed things. Changed a "probable outcome". Right?

Times like this I hate Superhero games.