FATE: Let's like talk about it.

[Vega Baby]

I have a question for everyone:  do you allow players to make skill rolls when they do not have the skill? For example, if they do not have "Alertness," do you let them roll at +0?

I have always let players do this, but I was told that I should not be and that they should only roll for the skills they have.  This seems odd to me, but it does make sense to some extent (in Fate your characters are equally defined by what skills they DO NOT have).  Still, the math is designed for a +1 roll on 4 Fudge dice alone to be difficult, so I always assumed a +0 roll to be a "base" roll that they won't succeed at.  But hey, if I'm wrong I'm wrong.

I'll just stick to FAE and use Approaches instead.   

You can definitely use skills at +0.  FATE characters are supposed to be pretty competent, and it'd be weird if a character untrained in it couldn't even attempt Stealth, for an example.  The only exception might be if you're using a skill as an Extra, and buying into the skill is one of the Permissions to get it.  Otherwise, you're meant to always be at least able to attempt something, and, if you're willing to sink enough Fate Points into the action, succeed.

[Jae.]

This would be lovely.

I feel like I've kind of hit my limit on what I can get out of the book so real life examples are much appreciated.

On the matter of letting them roll at +0 for Skills, as everyone else has said, yes you should let them do that! Although they don't have a great chance at succeeding. Check out anydice.com to roll up probability tables for any dice +Skill Rating (0,1, 2, etc.) and you can see for yourself. Also, if you take the time to construct a Fudge (Fate) die on there d{-1...1} etc. take a look at the probability curve for 4dF vs. 3d6, 1d20 or any other popular roll. You'll probably like the system even more once you see how nicely it makes the players even more competent by relying on their Skills...

-----------------------------

http://imgur.com/DndOYh6 -> Char. Sheet for Zero
That aside, regarding the Char. Sheet and situation for Invokes I promised. This is one side of the player's character sheet that I'm going to talk about. I think this version is missing the stunts but has the important stuff anyway (Aspects).

Without going into game story. The players blew any notion of operation security in their last mission. They're sitting at a debriefing and getting reamed out for it. Command argues that they need to get rid of a prisoner they took during their mission, he has to be executed immediately because he is a liability and a threat to their deniable asset status.


Player Compel
So one PC, Resident Manipulator, decides that he thinks this is super fishy and sneaks out. He uses what is essentially their Tacnet to make a Player Compel (he offers one of his own Fate Points to compel another player) to a second PC, who was saved from a horrible accident by "Peace" (their boss) and inducted into Black Ops after giving him some cybernetic limbs. He tells Robot Man that he is compelling his "This Is My Only Chance" Aspect, which referred to Robot Man's desire to enact this sort of life debt he has to this organization for saving him, lying to him that he has received separate orders from Peace, that command in the briefing room is compromised and that he should delay them at all costs. Robot Man has no Fate Points so he can't buy off the compel so he HAS to accept (Had he denied it, they would both basically pay into the central Fate Point pool and BOTH would lose their Fate Point).

Invoking
Robot Man tries to delay action from everyone in the briefing room (including the other PCs in the room) by various means but they're continuously on topic. So, he decides to derail the conversation by supposedly slipping out, (he's lying), that one of the bumbling aids in the room is in love with one of the officers. He's played his character as supposedly being incapable in social situations and not understanding emotion (Trouble: I'm Still Human -> i.e. sometimes he does let feelings get to him). So he fails his lie check, BUT invokes "Can't Stand Fools" for the re-roll, deducing that the aid will provide the perfect derailment when this comes up cause he's not too clever and gets it, delaying enough for Resident Manipulator to get to the prisoner.


GM Compel
Their boss, "Peace", basically video calls in (which they thought could not happen due to setting stuff. Basically Minovsky particle stuff) at this point and blows Resident Manipulator's lie. Command reveals that they do have contact with him (which confirms some of RM's suspicions, and makes him think even more they're trying to cover something up with the prisoner's death). "Peace" completely agrees with command and gives the direct order that prisoner is to be executed. I compel Robot Man's Aspect that he needs to follow this order "To The Letter". He accepts, gains a Fate Point, the meeting doesn't even finish and he's up and out of the room to kill the prisoner.

---------------------

And there you go, the scene closes and this turns into an awesome attempt at an escape plan by some of the PCs with the prisoner, against the members of their own base. But best of all, an awesome scene when Robot Man confronts Resident Manipulator in his quarters as he's trying to sneak the prisoner out. I hope that illustrated some stuff about how the Fate Point Economy works.

p.s. Holy crap, my Resident Manipulator is Caleb and Robot Man is Aaron! I didn't realize this till now lol

Edit: Replaced image of char. sheet with one that wasn't shit-tastic

[clockworkjoe]

Where did you get the fate core mecha rules? Good writeup btw!

[D6xD6 - Chris]

Thanks, all, for the help clarifying that!  I will now stand tall and make that person eat crow.  Or not talk to me again.  Either way works for me!

By the way, has anyone read/played Atomic Robo yet?  I have the PDF, but I haven't had any time to look through it.  It doesn't help that Ross posted the alternate power tier rules for Base Raiders, which is now forcing me to go back to playing that . . damn monster (my players wanted to play it again anyway, so it's all good).

It also doesn't help that tomorrow is Free RPG Day, so I am helping my FLGS out by demoing Fate Accelerated.  It is "BAD DUDES," and it is basically my love-letter to arcade-style beat-em-up games.  Boosts are replaced by random power-ups, and each player has one free stunt:  Insert Fate Point to Continue.  There are also character aspects that form. . umm. . ."strong" relationships between players.  Should be fun. 

[Leshrac]

I am also super curious where that mecha sheet came from.  it looks pretty well produced which tells me it might actually be a retail product..but I haven't actually seen a fate engine come across the table that has that in it
(I know of Mecha vs Kajui and Apotheosis Drive, but neither of them look quite like that).

I am also running a FAE game at Free RPG day at my local comic shop.  A FAE variant of Venture City Stories Supers game, that will have the players actually developing the bad guy they fight.

[Jae.]

Where did you get the fate core mecha rules? Good writeup btw!

Thank you! My players are fantastic and they really made the game awesome without me having to do anything (Mostly by being suspicious of literally ANYONE). I'm going to be playtesting my own game soon and I hope to cajole them into letting me record the sessions for "feedback" and, hopefully, posterity.

My Fate Core Mecha rules are actually the rules for Camelot Trigger in Fate Worlds: Worlds In Shadow -> http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/119384/Fate-Worlds-Worlds-in-Shadow

How you build the Mecha themselves is straight from their rules, I came up with my own Skill List, Stress/Consequences, Repair Rules, Hex Movement, Contacts & Resources. Uhhh i guess I changed almost the whole game except how you build the systems lol.

I am also super curious where that mecha sheet came from.  it looks pretty well produced which tells me it might actually be a retail product..but I haven't actually seen a fate engine come across the table that has that in it
(I know of Mecha vs Kajui and Apotheosis Drive, but neither of them look quite like that).

Hey, glad to hear you like the char. sheet, here is what the second page of it looks like: http://i.imgur.com/Xx4qqlC.png

I actually made the character sheet myself, the Mecha Art is just some Concept Art from the Armored Core series (I'm a huge fan on Mecha, especially that series of games).

Can't say I've looked at Mecha vs. Kaiju, but I have Apotheosis Drive X. Unfortunately, I am not a fan of ADX and kind of regret the purchase. It didn't do what I wanted for a mecha game, and there is no character sheet anywhere in the box. Hence why I just gutted the mecha rules from Camelot Trigger and whipped up my own version for anything else.

I am also running a FAE game at Free RPG day at my local comic shop.  A FAE variant of Venture City Stories Supers game, that will have the players actually developing the bad guy they fight.

That's awesome. The game I'm currently working on will have the players generate everything from the world, the antagonists and the culture of their group who are tasked with protecting the world. I'd love to hear how this game worked out for you.

In this Mecha game every time a support character came up, we actually stopped the game and "Cast" the character by talking about who would play them, giving them a couple of aspects. Within like 2 sessions we had a full base of supporting characters who were fleshed out. It was one of the best parts of the game, so I think it could be extended to everything really.

[Flawless P]

Thanks for all the great information.

Between that and listening to the Base Raider AP's I'm feeling alot more confident in knowing how a character is made and i've made a few sample NPC's.

Allow me to present them for your ridicule...

These NPC's were created to have skills slightly higher than a starting level Player character.

William Pierce

High Concept: Young kid falls face first into sword and sorcery.

Trouble Aspect: Confident to a Fault.

Background Aspect: Chicks dig musicians.

Background Aspect: No one dies today!

Background Aspect: You're gonna go far kid.

Athletics +2
Burglary +1
Deceive +2
Empathy +1
Fight +3
Investigate +2
Lore +4
Notice +2
Physique +3
Provoke +2
Rapport +4
Shoot +2
Stealth +3
Will +3

Or

Akkar The Red

High Concept: Recently Liberated Minotaur Pit Fighter

Trouble Aspect: When in an unfamiliar land: Violence Solves Everything

Background Aspect: Closet Academic.

Background Aspect: I will break you.

Background Aspect: My loyalty knows no bounds

Stunt Cost 2: Minotaur Toughness - Armor Rating of 2.

Stunt Cost 1: SPEAR! - Once per combat you can change zones and attack an enemy using Physique instead of fight.

Athletics +3
Fight +4
Lore +3
Notice +2
Physique +5
Provoke +2
Will +1

[Jae.]

I think these look good, overall

Pierce looks alright. His High Concept is a little clumsy though. Maybe go with "Young Kid Out Of His Depth". It says about the same thing because "Sword and Sorcery" should be said in your Game/World Aspects so he doesn't need it in there too.

The other thing is both yours and my own adapted version of the concept I don't think leave much room for him to invoke it in his favour. I would maybe make it something like "The Brave Upstart In Over His Head". At least he's brave, he's still implied to be young but also kind of gutsy, with some gumption to him. But he still is deep in things he doesn't understand.

Following that, I think he's good. Even though "You're Gonna Go Far, Kid" is a little on the vague side I was definitely able to think of instances for invoke/compel so it passes.

Akkar's high concept is great and what you should shoot for every time. My only issue is with part of his Trouble. Adding the "when in an unfamiliar land" piece to it makes it way too narrow. Just "Violence Solves Everything" is great.

Also, I'm pretty sure Spear doesn't work well as a single cost stunt because it allows you to move a zone AND and replace a skill with another. I think a good fit is just to make it a "Charge" type stunt for 1 refresh, where it's "When you move a zone and attack someone, you can use Physique instead of Fight".

I won't comment on Minotaur Toughness since I think categorically that stunts that give Armor or Weapon rating bonus flat out without a specific circumstance narrowing it's use should not be done. For a good argument against this in the book go check out the example when one of the character's wants a similar stunt when attacking with his family heirloom sword.

P.s. Sorry for the terrible format. Answered from my phone

[Flawless P]

Gotcha, I was basing the Minotaur stunt mostly off of the Super hero page in the fate toolkit information. I could see The Minotaur toughness stunt being unbalanced since most others don't have that option so it might require some balance tweaking, maybe drop the armor rating while still requiring the 2 stunt cost.


Actually thanks for pointing out the "In the familiar land" clause, that's actually a hang over from his first trouble so yeah I'm gonna delete that one.

I like your suggestions for Pierce as well, his High Concept was tough for me. I like yours better.

Does the once per combat clause of the "Spear!" stunt not feel restrictive enough? I suppose it could be cranked up to a two cost stunt.

Still just feeling my way around balancing stunts.

[Jae.]

Does the once per combat clause of the "Spear!" stunt not feel restrictive enough? I suppose it could be cranked up to a two cost stunt.

Whoooooops, that is my mistake. I did not even see the once per combat requirement. I think that actually balances it out enough, I certainly don't think it's beneficial enough to warrant you give it the "once per session" restriction.

As far as Armor Rating. If you hang out in the Fate Core G+ community, the conversation about Weapon & Armor Ratings is a constant, some of us have tried to come up with our own takes on it several times, so I definitely don't you're doing it wrong or anything. He is an NPC, so the +2 Armor Rating could be justifiable in that sense, might not be a bad idea to see how it works in play, and if you see it's too much just avoid it another time.

[Flawless P]

I think the armor stunt was something I planned to test out in play and if it seemed too strong I'd tone it down.

Not gonna offer that to PC's.

Now question is does a stunt that allows you to shoot magic bolts from your hands count as a 1 cost stunt. This is another NPC so it might be fine once again but I was wondering from a player perspective how it seems.

Magic Blast: Can use "Skill" to make ranged attacks that originate from your person.

[Jae.]

I think that's a straightforward use of a 1 refresh stunt. I think the times that I have seen it are especially when there is a special Skill you have to take for it. Say "Sorcery", cause it means you also have to use up one of your precious Skill Rating Slots for it.

 That way there is an extra cost due to the advantage that it replaces the "Shoot" skill for you in basically every situation.

[Flawless P]

I enjoy this systems character/npc creation greatly.

Very fun narrative options.

Thanks again!

[SageNytell]

Now question is does a stunt that allows you to shoot magic bolts from your hands count as a 1 cost stunt. This is another NPC so it might be fine once again but I was wondering from a player perspective how it seems.

So I think you're coming at this from the wrong direction. Why does the character need a stunt to emulate the Shoot skill when the Shoot skill exists?

Just let them use Shoot. Flavor it however you like it. If the character has an aspect to the effect of 'I'm A Magic Dude', then since function follows fiction he can shoot magic, because he is a magic dude. You don't need a stunt specifically for that.

Now when stunts come in handy is when you want to add functionality to a skill. For example, Echoing Voice is a stunt I might give to a particular character to allow them to make physical attacks with Provoke alongside mental attacks. This doesn't replace Shoot because it does not allow the character to Overcome Obstacles or Create Advantages the way they could with Shoot, just attack. And the first thing you learn when you get deep into FATE is that attacking is one of the least powerful things characters can do.

[Flawless P]

I suppose that's also a fair way to look at it.

I just wasn't sure how much of it to "assume".

My first instinct was to swap it to a different skill because in my mind I was stuck with the idea that using shoot generically would make the character good with all kinds of ranged weapons and flavor wise that was against my first instincts, but I suppose if I get over little hangovers like "proficiency" from Dungeons and Dragons I would be better with this system.